Thanks Steve for your honesty. How does the church explain that Jesus identifies Israel as Babylon and that the Papacy did not exist before John? Or, do they even realize these conflicts exist in their doctrine?


Also, it is very interesting to me that SDA’s fear the Papacy so much, but have probably never really read any of the Apostolic letters or other doctrinal communication from the Pope. Well, even though I am not a Catholic, I have read some of this information and it changed my view of the Papacy.

The fact is, based on the Pope’s Apostolic Letters, that the Papacy is fearful of it’s ability to worship on Sunday being taken away just as much as SDA’s fear their ability to worship on the Sabbath taken away.

It is sort of humorous that SDA’s are afraid of the very same thing that the Papacy is afraid of. The only difference is that the Papacy does not focus this fear on only one denominational belief like SDA’s do.

Lobo,
My honest opinion is that we (sda's) have focused on the wrong thing regarding prophetic interpretation. We have focused on the events, who the kingdoms may represent, and what those kingdoms or powers may do to God's people. We have done that to such an extent that we have totally neglected looking at the end, as in what does the bible describe at the very end? The bible describes a God who delivers His people, a God who has prepared a place for His people, a God who destroys those other powers because He is sovreign God. Now when I look at that fact, that He is King of Kings, then why should I worry about the papacy or anyone else? He has assured me that He is in charge and that ultimately all these other pretenders to the throne will be destroyed.... so why worry?

Steve, that is a very mature position. Think about how many Catholics have been treated intentionally or unintentionally in a non-Christlike manner because of this preconceived idea?

The gospel is very basic and simple and even Catholic can have a relationship with Jesus and be saved.

So our job is to be a witness to non-believers and not worry about who may or may not do something to us. God is in control and we should let him determine these events and just continue to show love and Christlike behavior to all, included Catholics.

So I think the only “worry”, if there is one, should be that we don’t alienate our Christian brothers in support of a doctrine that is far from concrete and may in fact be totally false.

Lobo, I'm sorry my post missed the mark. Please forgive me. Thanx. My point is that historically the abyss was earth in its "primordial" state. I have no reason to believe the abyss is anything other than earth. The devils also asked Jesus not to destroy them in the abyss before the appointed time. The Bible says the evil angels are reserved in darkness until the day of their destruction. It makes sense to me.

The prophecies of Daniel clearly trace the history of B, M-P, G, and Rome. I assume you agree with that much at least. So it makes sense to me to continue the major aspects of history involving the power players from then until now. Who can ignore the popes and Catholic Europe? Who canignore the Protestant Reformation? Who can ignore the rise and influence of the USA? I'm not saying you are - but what are you saying?

Thanks for the reply Mike. I think if you look at that text (Luke 8) again you will see that the demon was afraid that Jesus was gong to torment, not destroy them:

“28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, [d]don't torture me!"[/b]


Then the demon states how he thinks Jesus will torture him:

“30Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" 31"Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.”

So the abyss is where the torture took place or was related to that fear the demon had. Again, if the abyss was this earth the demons statement makes no sense. You seem to have made up your mind on this, but it goes in the fact of what scripture actually says here. And you are correct that demon are being held in the abyss until the end and then they come out of the abyss at that time, Rev 9 & 11.

quote:

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Who can ignore the popes and Catholic Europe? Who canignore the Protestant Reformation? Who can ignore the rise and influence of the USA? I'm not saying you are - but what are you saying?

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I’m not ignoring this, but it doesn’t fit with other actual literal texts in scripture. The only way to make your scenario work is not interpret scripture all symbolically and then determine, based on historical events, what fits where. Well, I’m not comfortable doing that when there are other explanations that fit with a literal interpretation. This goes for Israel being Babylon and the beast being an angel that comes out of the abyss.

Lobo,
I agree with your post.... and that is why, though I am sda, I do not preach/discuss/debate prophetic themes.... to me it's a moot point. If we are in Christ, He will deliver His own.... in fact sometimes given our obsession with prophecy (we just have to be right is the attitude I sense)how much of His love are we sharing with those who don't know Him?

You are right Steve, that has been my experience as well.

Whenever you have a belief system that prides itself on being different based on certain doctrines, those doctrines take on a life of their own. Then all of a sudden these doctrines are what determines salvation and is the test of true faith instead of faith in Jesus and the basic gospel.

I personally believe SDA’s have a lot to offer the Christian community, but it gets lost in this obsession to be different and ends up being presented as being an SDA is the criteria for salvation, not faith in Jesus or the gospel.

Another related issue is that the doctrines that founded the church continue to be held up as pillars of the faith even those they have serious exegetical and theological flaws. Scripture states that in the last days knowledge will increase, why do SDA’s not believe this is true related to spiritual knowledge? If they did believe this than they would be more interested in new truth as it has been revealed than maintaining the status quo.

It would seem fairly important to figure out exactly who or what Babylon is since the Bible paints it as an end power that we must come out of in order to escape sin and destruction. Jesus warned us that deception would be so cleverly crafted just before He returns that even the very elect will be sorely tested.

As is always the case, knowledge will not protect us from this deception of Satan. That is why the term “elect” is used. So knowing or not knowing these events will not help a believer withstand Satan. ONLY a saving relationship with Jesus will do that.

So the fact still remains that regardless of what we know, only our faith and relationship with Jesus will prevent us from deception. So Jesus saves us from being deceived, not us knowing who the beast is. If we are in Jesus he will not let us be deceived.

The other problem with relying on knowledge is that you could be wrong. If you believe in a certain scenario, and it doesn’t happen, then you will have a difficult time maintaining your faith. If you don’t believe this, just ask the hundreds of SDA believers who left the church after Jesus didn’t return in 1844.

Lastly, Satan is much smatter than we and he knows more than us what is going to occur. So if we believe, or put our faith in our knowledge of how we think a certain event will take place, Satan will use that belief against us.

For example, many SDA’s believe there will be a law enforcing Sunday worship. However, this is not literally stated anywhere in scripture. So this is definitely open to interpretation. As a result, it is entirely possible that there is a law enforcing worship, but that law could be requiring Sabbath worship. Remember, the false prophet will come impersonating Jesus and Jesus always worshipped on the Sabbath. So to adequately convince people that he is Jesus, he will have to do everything Jesus did like worshipping on the Sabbath.

So what will SDA’s do who believe in a Sunday law that turns out to be a Sabbath law? Will you still worship on the Sabbath and then inadvertently be supporting the beast, or will you stop worshipping on the Sabbath?

This scenario should show you how the issue really is related to whom we worship, not when we worship.

Lobo, if correctly interpreting "the beast" makes no difference, so far as being deceived, then why did Jesus share it us? What difference does it make? How many SDA's left the church in 1844? Zero! The SDA church did not come into existence until after the Great Disappointment (1863).

If knowledge has nothing to do with salvation, then can we say knowing Jesus is all that really matters? The Jews misinterperted the messianic prophecies and then ended up crucifying Jesus.

You have suggested that the Devil will most likely impersonate Jesus by keeping the 7th day sabbath because that's the day everybody expects Jesus to keep. Why then do the majority of Christians teach that Jesus changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday? The rest believe the sabbath has been totally abolished altogether.

Do you agree the prophecies of Daniel introduce the following list of kingdoms: B, M-P, G, and R?