Lobo, I like how you are using the Bible to interpret itself. Well done. You've given me much to think, pray and study about. The way you linked the blood of saints with literal Israel and symbolic Babylon is noteworthy.

However, where in the line of beasts and kingdoms does Daniel or the Revelation list the nation of Israel? The prophecies depict 1) Babylon, 2) Medo-Persia, 3) Grecia, 4) Rome, 5) Catholic Europe, 6) Communist Europe, 7) Protestant America and 8) Catholic Europe Revived.

The woman seated upon the beast in Rev 17 is named Babylon, the great whore and mother of harlots. The beast symbolizes the 8 kingdoms listed above and the woman symbolizes false or apostate religion. During the first 4 kingdoms the woman represents paganism, during the 5th and 8th catholicism, during the 6th atheism and during the 7th apostate protestantism.

So where does Israel fit in?

Oops! I assumed you believe the prophecies predicted the rise and fall of the kingdoms I listed above. But you're right, the Bible only names the first four kingdoms, after that we must rely on the historical record preserved outside the Bible. Since I am convinced of the list I shared above I have a hard time fitting literal modern day Israel into the picture of last day events. Of course, I do not buy into the popular ideas advocated by dispensationalists.

Ron,

You have an interesting outline of those prophetic entities. One detail which seems to support your outline is that in Daniel, two entities seem to have been used to represent Persia, Greece, and Rome: a bear, a leopard, and a terrible beast in Daniel 7; and a ram, a goat, and a fifth horn on the ram in Daniel 8. Perhaps those two descriptions do NOT represent the same entities. After all, Daniel 7 closes with a judgment scene that sounds like Earth's final judgment and perhaps those four beasts belong in the same time frame.

I do see two major problems with your assessment, however (and a possible solution to one). The woman of Rev. 17 is also described in Rev. 18 and there she is said to do many things which obviously do not apply to the papacy: Make the merchants of Earth grow rich, for instance (v 3) or make the sea captains rich (v 19). Neither was Rome guilty of "the blood of the prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth" (v 24). You did mention that the next potential pope was a Jew (Jean Marie Lustiger) and he might be the connecting link between the Jews and the Papacy.

That leaves a second problem. Through history, all the major empires have had a dual leadership. We usually look at the kings as running the show. But behind every one of them (except in our current era) was a god that pulled the strings. And all those gods were direct descendants of Nimrod who in turn represented Satan. In the current era, apparently the "was not" era, all gods have officially been banished, but in the underground, there is a powerful movement to restore Satan to his former glory. That movement is the New Age Movement. I believe that movement requires even more consideration in end time events than either Catholicism, or Protestantism. It is, after all, one part of the three-fold union spoken of by Mrs. White.

Bob Lee

Hi Boblee,
You made an excellent point where you said the following:

quote:

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That movement is the New Age Movement. I believe that movement requires even more consideration in end time events than either Catholicism, or Protestantism. It is, after all, one part of the three-fold union spoken of by Mrs. White.

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This movement has already infiltrated many Christian churches.

God Bless,
Will

Can I ask why, other than a preconceived idea outside of scripture, do you all feel that the papacy is Babylon?

Based on what I have already shared, and the fact that the Papacy did not exist before John, it cannot be Babylon or the beast power.

“The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.” Rev 17:8

Please also notice that the abyss is not this world and therefore that also precludes the papacy from being the beast power. The abyss is the place that Jesus was going to send the demon he met in the cemetery, but didn’t because he begged him not to in Luke 8.

So if the demon was already on this earth, begging Jesus to not send him to the same place he already was would not make sense. So we know the abyss cannot be this earth.

Also, scripture is clear that the abyss is indeed where demons are sent, 2 peter 2:4, Jude 1:6.

So the beast coming out of the abyss has to be the devil or other demon and not an earthly power.

When the evil angels were cast out of heaven, according to Rev 12, they were banished to earth (before Adam and Eve were created). The earth at that time was void and without form - an abyss.

The beast that was, is not and yet is, and shall ascend again clearly describes the history of Catholic Europe - which is more than just the RCC. Most biblical historians agree that the prophecies of D&R begin with with Babylon and include Medo-Persia, Grecia and Rome. During the protestant reformation there was no doubt Catholic Europe is the 5th kingdom. Today some diversity exists as to whether or not it's true anymore.

Mike, you aren’t paying attention.

It doesn’t matter what the earth was before the fall, because the demon in Luke 8 begging Jesus not to send him to the abyss was here on this very earth at the time. And the earth at that time was nothing close to an abyss.

So please refrain from rehearsed answers and read these texts. Your explanation doesn’t address the issue. Here it is again:

THIS EARTH CANNOT BE THE ABYSS, BECAUSE THE DEMON WAS ALREADY ON THIS EARTH WHEN HE BEGGED JESUS TO NOT SEND HIM TO THE ABYSS.


Next, the beast.

When John wrote Revelation (Approx. 90AD) the papacy DID NOT EXIST! Also note that it did not exist before John wrote revelation as well. So the Papacy doesn’t meet the criteria in Rev 17:8 to have existed before John wrote Revelation.

So your scenario is contrary to scripture.

Lobo,
Some of our fascination with the papacy is that we have historically interpreted it that way....... Just like our interpretation about the beast in Rev 13 represents the U.S., which I have always had questions about.......