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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46528
09/18/03 07:48 PM
09/18/03 07:48 PM
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quote:
Lobo, if correctly interpreting "the beast" makes no difference, so far as being deceived, then why did Jesus share it us? What difference does it make? How many SDA's left the church in 1844? Zero! The SDA church did not come into existence until after the Great Disappointment (1863).
Mike, you are splitting hairs. Whatever you want to call the church that thought Jesus would come, EGW was a part of it, and many people left. That is a fact. My point was not that it was technically SDA or not, but that people who place their faith in a certain version of prophesy are bond to be disappointed.
Knowledge of what may happen is nice, but that is NOT where our faith should be placed. That is my point. So Jesus shared that info to help people stay strong when they saw the events unfolding. However, what Jesus stated and what you are trying to surmise out of Revelation and Daniel is something else.
Jesus was very literal and specific. Daniel and revelation are not so easily understood. Not to mention the FACT that Daniel remains a closed book. So if you really believed in scripture you would realize that there really is no reasonable way to understand Daniel until the time of the end.
quote:
If knowledge has nothing to do with salvation, then can we say knowing Jesus is all that really matters? The Jews misinterperted the messianic prophecies and then ended up crucifying Jesus.
Mike, you answered your own question here. The Jews, like you, were relying on prophesy and not the spirit of God. So they knew very well all the prophesies, but because they had flawed interpretation, and they based their faith on this interpretation, they did not recognize the savior.
So YESSSSSSSSSS, knowing Jesus is all that matters. If you know Jesus he will not let you be lead astray. If you don’t believe this, then you do not really believe in Jesus. Because either belief in him saves or it doesn’t.
quote:
You have suggested that the Devil will most likely impersonate Jesus by keeping the 7th day sabbath because that's the day everybody expects Jesus to keep. Why then do the majority of Christians teach that Jesus changed the sabbath from saturday to sunday? The rest believe the sabbath has been totally abolished altogether.
Mike, who believes that Jesus changed the day to Sunday? I have never heard that before. Clearly, other than some appointed feast days, Sunday has no sacred meaning.
However, you make a good point. But please look at my post again. I was not saying that the Devil would for sure do this, juts that it was possible. The Devil will go to whatever lengths he is allowed to trip you up. And if SDA’s believe some strongly in a Sunday law that is a foundation of their faith, then you can bet the Devil will try and hit that very issue, but not in a way you may be prepared for.
So my entire point was just to be very careful that our faith rest solely in Jesus and everything else is a lesser issue. If not, we will lose.
quote:
Do you agree the prophecies of Daniel introduce the following list of kingdoms: B, M-P, G, and R?
Yes, because that is what it literally states.
But I also believe that “the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end” (Daniel 12:9). And since most of these events coincide with Revelation, which is not a closed Book (Rev 22:10). And they have not occurred yet in Revelation. Then I must conclude that we are not yet in the time of the end and therefore we really don’t know what Daniel is saying yet.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46529
09/18/03 09:54 PM
09/18/03 09:54 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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If Daniel is still closed then why did Jesus apply one of the prohecies to the early church?
If correctly interperting the messianic prophecies doesn't matter then why did Jesus use them to prove to the guys He was walking to Emmaus with that He is the messiah?
I agree that misinterpreting or misapplying prophecy can lead to disasterous results. But getting it right can lead to desirable results.
If I'm wrong about Babylon I will fair well because I am not going to be deceived into believing the sabbath has been changed from saturday to sunday. But if you're wrong about Babylon then you stand a pretty good chance of being deceived because you believe the sabbath has been abolished.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46530
09/19/03 10:07 AM
09/19/03 10:07 AM
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Posts: 213
Alabama
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Mike,
I know you are a pastor and will preach/teach the "party" line so to speak, however consider this. Jesus said, If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.... What does that mean? It is my belief that ANY doctrinal belief that does not have Christ as it's focal point is GARBAGE. If Christ cannot be found at the center, then we have no business preaching it. Thus, if the church wants to preach prophecy, preach it, but make sure, absolutely sure that Christ is in the center. Historically we have not consistently done that. We have taught prophecy to prove that we are right, that we are "the church." Consequently many people view us as a church that believes that salvation is a Jesus + arrangement. Jesus + vegetarianism, Jesus + sabbath-keeping, Jesus + the writings of EGW or Jesus + the IJ. The reality is that its Jesus and Jesus alone who gives us salvation.......
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46531
09/20/03 02:18 AM
09/20/03 02:18 AM
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quote:
If Daniel is still closed then why did Jesus apply one of the prohecies to the early church?
Mike, are you aware of the assumptions you are making with this statement? Where does it state that this was for the early church? You just are assuming that because it fits into your preconceived timeline. You are taking historical events like the Roman invasion of Israel in 70AD to be the fulfillment of what Jesus stated, and linked to Daniel.
However, as I have pointed out, there are other scriptural clues we see when we let scripture interpret scripture that conflict with this idea. I know history may seem more substantial than scripture at times, but we have to honestly reevaluate doctrinal ideas when they conflict with literal scripture and that is exactly the case here.
Fore example,
“15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.” Matt 24
Please notice the bolded statement “great distress” or time of trouble unequaled before this time and unequaled after.
So Mike, if you believe these events Jesus described took place in 70AD, then to not be hypocritical, you must also believe that the great tribulation of the end has also already taken placed because Jesus linked them together.
Now do you see what I’m talking about trusting in history over biblical statements?
So clearly from a biblical perspective, the great tribulation Jesus is referring to has not happen yet. And since these events are all linked together, this means that what Daniel was referring to has also not happened yet; which means 70AD was not the fulfillment of this prophesy.
So based on this I believe you are incorrect and that Daniel remains sealed and these events remain to occur.
quote:
If correctly interperting the messianic prophecies doesn't matter then why did Jesus use them to prove to the guys He was walking to Emmaus with that He is the messiah?
Again you are making assumptions that Daniel was referring to the messiah. You are also making assumptions that this is the prophesies Jesus was referring to because he did not mention Daniel.
quote:
If I'm wrong about Babylon I will fair well because I am not going to be deceived into believing the sabbath has been changed from saturday to sunday. But if you're wrong about Babylon then you stand a pretty good chance of being deceived because you believe the sabbath has been abolished.
So you are saying that my belief or unbelief in the Sabbath is what saves me?
Sorry, but where in scripture does it say that belief in the Sabbath is a requirement for salvation?
Also, you seem to be missing my point. Being saved or not saved is not an issue of being deceived or not being deceived. It’s an issue of having a relationship with Jesus Christ or not having a relationship. Those who have a relationship will be saved and those not, will not be saved.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46532
09/20/03 02:21 AM
09/20/03 02:21 AM
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quote:
We have taught prophecy to prove that we are right, that we are "the church." Consequently many people view us as a church that believes that salvation is a Jesus + arrangement. Jesus + vegetarianism, Jesus + sabbath-keeping, Jesus + the writings of EGW or Jesus + the IJ. The reality is that its Jesus and Jesus alone who gives us salvation.......
Amen Steve!
I have been on both sides of the fence and I fully agree with you.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46533
09/19/03 07:34 PM
09/19/03 07:34 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Steve, I like what you posted about Jesus and salvation. Thank you. And thank you Jesus! Have you ever read "God Cares" (vol's 1 & 2)? I believe these books make Jesus the center of prophecy. I also believe that what you posted about prophecy goes for all other doctrinal truths - vegetarianism, state of the dead, the sabbath, the investigative judgment, etc. Jesus must be the focus.
The way I like to place Jesus at the center of this thread is to suggest that joining ranks with Babylon is like divorcing Jesus. If we forfeit the truth about the sabbath in order to cooperate with Babylon and the mark of the beast then we are denying Jesus.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46534
09/19/03 07:55 PM
09/19/03 07:55 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, thank you for a well though out answer. Matthew 24 begins with the disciples asking when the temple would be destroyed. Jesus answers by quoting Daniel and the abomination of desolation. Thus, it makes sense to me that there is a relationship between the temple and the prophecy Jesus cited and Mattherw 24. I also agree with the dual prophecy concept concerning Matthew 24.
If having a relationship with Jesus guarantees that I cannot be deceived - no matter what I believe about Babylon - then why did God bother sharing it with us? And No, I'm not suggesting you're unsaved if you don't have it right today.
But I do believe that just before Jesus returns all the world will be divided into two classes, those who have the seal of God and those who have the mark of the beast - the saved and the lost. Ignorance will not be bliss, nor will it be an excuse. Everyone will have chosen freely.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46535
09/19/03 08:42 PM
09/19/03 08:42 PM
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quote:
Lobo, thank you for a well though out answer. Matthew 24 begins with the disciples asking when the temple would be destroyed. Jesus answers by quoting Daniel and the abomination of desolation. Thus, it makes sense to me that there is a relationship between the temple and the prophecy Jesus cited and Mattherw 24. I also agree with the dual prophecy concept concerning Matthew 24.
I agree with you Mike, but have you considered that the destruction in 70AD was not the one Jesus was referring to? In other words, the temple rebuilt during the time of the end (Daniel 9:25) and then destroyed again. Scripture does support the temple being rebuilt a second time and that concept is consistent with the great tribulation as well.
quote:
If having a relationship with Jesus guarantees that I cannot be deceived - no matter what I believe about Babylon - then why did God bother sharing it with us? And No, I'm not suggesting you're unsaved if you don't have it right today.
Mike, are you telling me that you don’t have enough faith in Jesus to believe that whatever happens you will be saved?
What you believe or don’t about Babylon has nothing to do with being saved. And not being deceived is about being saved, right?
And if you are correct and the 2 camp scenario plays out, are you saying that those who believe in Jesus, and trust in him, he will let be deceived? I think you put too much stock in your own abilities and strength.
Lastly, as far as the seal of God, you mean the holy spirit, right?
Ephesians 1:13 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."
Ephesians 4:30 warns, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 states "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."
quote:
Ignorance will not be bliss, nor will it be an excuse. Everyone will have chosen freely.
Yes, I agree. But I think we disagree on what that choice will be. It is a choice to believe and worship Jesus or believe and worship the beast.
=======
Formatting error correction only. - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
[ September 20, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46536
09/24/03 02:16 AM
09/24/03 02:16 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, do you mean the temple will be rebuilt a third time in future? 1) Solomon's temple (destroyed by Babylon), 2) Ezra's temple (destroyed by Rome), and then a 3) future temple?
Actually I do agree with you that if I sincerely love Jesus and obey Him He will not allow me to deceived into receiving the mark of the beast or worshiping the beast and his image. But I also believe He will help me understand the truth about Babylon so I cannot be deceived. In order to come out of Babylon I have to know what it is.
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
2 Thessalonians
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
John
8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John
7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
The seal of God, as I understand it, is a seal placed upon those who have been numbered and sealed among the 144,000. Yes, they have also been sealed by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy
2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Revelation
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
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Re: Who or What Is "Babylon" and What Is Its Role?
#46537
09/23/03 03:57 PM
09/23/03 03:57 PM
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quote:
Lobo, do you mean the temple will be rebuilt a third time in future? 1) Solomon's temple (destroyed by Babylon), 2) Ezra's temple (destroyed by Rome), and then a 3) future temple?
Yes Mike, that’s is what I’m saying.
Many people get freaked out when I say this because they think I’m saying that Israel is doing something that God approves of by rebuilding the temple, but that is not what I’m saying.
I believe the Jewish temple mount, currently occupied (1/2) by Muslins, will be rebuilt and the OT sacrificial system restarted. This, I believe, is done in fulfillment of prophesy, but not in fulfillment of God’s will. In other words, the beast and Satan have a role to play in end time events. And just because they do have a role doesn’t mean that role is God’s will.
So the Jewish temple will be built again, but technically by a group of faithless Jews whom scripture indicates is Babylon.
quote:
Actually I do agree with you that if I sincerely love Jesus and obey Him He will not allow me to deceived into receiving the mark of the beast or worshiping the beast and his image. But I also believe He will help me understand the truth about Babylon so I cannot be deceived. In order to come out of Babylon I have to know what it is.
Do you see how your second statement turns around Jesus’ power and ability and then makes it again about your own ability? And I guess it’s the same thing, just a different way of looking at it. Because we (mankind) tend to want to be in control I choose to believe that Jesus will save me without me using any of my own power or strength. In this way I don’t fall into the trap of taking the control away from the savior.
quote:
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Make, if you look at this text in context with what or whom Jesus indicated was Babylon, then it takes on an entirely different meaning. Specifically, if we believe that Jesus was correct in labeling Israel as Babylon, then Rev 18:4 would indicate that God was again, for the last time, trying to save the people he has worked with for so very long, Israel. So, “come out of her my people”, would mean; faithful Jews come out of the faithless Israel (Babylon). And, as you pointed out, the 144,000 literal Jews witnessing for Jesus would help to reach the last few.
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