Lobo wrote, "Do you see how your second statement turns around Jesus’ power and ability and then makes it again about your own ability? And I guess it’s the same thing, just a different way of looking at it. Because we (mankind) tend to want to be in control I choose to believe that Jesus will save me without me using any of my own power or strength. In this way I don’t fall into the trap of taking the control away from the savior."

Lobo,
I agree..... the bible says, "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling." It is about Him and we have a nasty habit of trying to make it about us. That is why I reject the remnant theology concept, when we self identify ourselves (sda's) as the remnant, we have effectlvely made it about us, and not about Him, and we have arroganty presumed to know who God will save.....

Only God knows who are His throughout this world....

Good point Steven.

Let me ask you, what do you think about the goal of a saving relationship with Jesus being for us to keep the law better or perfectly?

To me, this makes it again about us and not Jesus. The goal of our faith should not be about what we can do, even if it’s with Jesus help. The goal should be about getting closer to him, period.

Lobo,
I agree that the emphasis has to be relationship. Whenever we focus on being perfect, or being sinless, or whatever, we are attempting to do God's work for Him. My daughter use to complain that she was not growing fast enough. She wanted to grow...... well all her wishing did not make her grow. I told her as long as she did what God designed her to do (eat well, sleep) that He would take care of the growing....

As Christians, God grows us, what we stumble over is what is it that He requires us to "do?" Micah said that we should do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with God.....

The question we should ask ourselves is this, Does God require perfection in order to have a relationship with us?

I believe that according to scripture the answer is clearly no. God accepts us as we are, sinners. Then through a long process of working with us brings us closer to him. In doing this we naturally become more like him. However, the trap is believing that we need to reach some universal level of development in order to be saved.

The thief of the cross had virtually no spiritual development and was saved based solely on his faith, and nothing else.

Lobo,
Agreed. The problem as I see it is that at times we emphasize perfection of character ignoring the fact that God saves us in the context of relationship.... It is akin to a person saying that they will grow and develop and be the best spouse possible ignoring the fact that growing into the best spouse comes within the context of the relationship with the person, not without the person.....

Darious, would you then agree that it is the OT law that encourages this self-focus?

The OT law was all about behavior (i.e. Deut 6:25), which is very visible and tangible. It was also about control; me controlling my behavior and others behavior (i.e. Duet 19:15). This was what Israel became expert at, control of behavior.

So if we continue to use a moral model that was instituted thousands of years ago before Jesus first advent, that was designed to be self (behaviorally) focused, how can we possibly focus on other as the NT model revealed by Jesus requires?

Many try and tie the two moral models together, but as Jesus outlined in Matt 5, the new model of intent is focused on our hearts and minds and not behavior. So in essence the old model was about man’s own control of his own behavior. The new model is about man’s inner thoughts and character.

So under the new model our behavior is not the focus. As such, we don’t look at ourselves or judge others. This results in a natural focus on others instead of self. The reason is that since the new model is internal, there is no way for man to judge another’s heart; it’s not visible and cannot be seen. However, we can judge our own hearts, which is much, much, much more difficult than just complying with certain external behavioral requirements.

So I believe that if Christians would really understand and embrace the new moral model they would continually understand their need for a savior and grace being confronted with the darkness of their hearts, which cannot be faked.

Or it could mean this; obedience does not necessarily mean there is a relationship, but if there is a relationship there will be obedience....

It can certainly be stated that we can have obedience without a relationship and a relationship will naturally produce obedience. The difference however is that in the past it was obedience that was measured, but in the NT it is the depth of relationship or moral character that is measured regardless of the behavior.

So since it is our relationship or moral character that is the issue, and this is not measurable by external behavior, the external obedience cannot be the measure of moral character. As such, there is no universal level of behavior that would indicate a saved or lost person.

In addition, since the believers guide is the Holy Spirit, while in OT times it was the law, the OT law cannot be the universal standard of external behavior. And in fact that is exactly what scripture teaches (Gal 3:24-25).

On what basis then is the judgement that begins with the house of God?

quote:

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1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

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