Lobo, God is no longer dealing with ethnic Jews like He did in OT times. In the NT He is dealing with born again believers irrespective of their geneology. The quotes I shared above make this point clear to me. However, I agree with what you wrote about specific roles outlined in prophecy and that salvation is available to everyone who embraces Jesus as their personal Saviour. But I do not believe literal Israel has been assigned a role in end time events (other than the possibility the leaders of christendom may build some kind of international headquarters in Jerusalem).

Mike,
What you have submitted for consideration may or may not be true, however the question is this, Israel (not necessarily the state of Israel that exists as we see it today)must still factor into God's plan for humanity because the gates to the Holy City have inscribed on them the 12 tribes of Israel. If they were no longer God's people why the inscription?

Steve, you make a good point. And I would also like to ask Mike another questions, which I have asked him in the past, but he has not answered.

If you, or SDA’s, believe you are the Remnant mentioned in Rev 7, WHAT TRIBE OF ISRAEL DO YOU BELONG TO?

If you can’t legitimately answer this it may be because you are treating this very literal and specific text as figurative and symbolic?

In the Revelation I believe the names of the 12 tribes of Israel symbolize predominate traits of character. Biblical names reflect a persons dominate trait of character. Which is why God renamed some people after powerful encounters with Him. Babylon is symbolic of the kingdom God used to help His chosen people to refocus on their mission.

Mike,
So describe those traits. Sounds like a divine astrology signs chart, so I would be interested to read what traits those are.... Additionally you reject that the twelve names on those gates actually represent the twelve tribes?

The definition of the names given the 12 children of Jacob (Israel) and/or their famous good deeds provide clues to help us determine the dominate trait of character they symbolize in the Revelation. Please note the example below. I believe the same goes for the 12 names on the 12 gates on the temple in New Jerusalem.

Smith's Bible Dictionary

Reu’ben (behold a son )
Jacob’s firstborn Child, (Genesis 29:32) the son of Leah. (B.C. 1753.) The notices of the patriarch Reuben give, on the whole a favorable view of his disposition. To him and him alone the preservation of Joseph’s life appears to have been due and afterward he becomes responsible for his safety. (Genesis 37:18-30; 42:37)

Mike wrote, "I believe the same goes for the 12 names on the 12 gates on the temple in New Jerusalem."

However you cannot be certain? If the gates are literal gates, then why can't the names be the literal names of the tribes? How can the names be symbolic and the gates not be? Or vice versa? How did you come to the conclusion that you did?

Sounds like we are being to fast and loose with symbolism.

How do we decide when something actually means what is literally and contextually indicated or is symbolic for something else?

I fear that this decision is often made in the context of some other doctrine external to scripture. In other words, if we believe that literal believers of Jesus from Israel cannot be the remnant of Israel, then our interpretation of texts that literally state that concept will always be symbolic in order to maintain our preexisting doctrine.

However, I believe scripture was not designed to support our own doctrines, but to supply them. I also believe that scripture was meant to be understood by most, because if it wasn’t then there would be no need for it in the first place.

So when reading a passage I believe the following exegetical methods should be used:

1. First read the passage in context and as literal

2. If the passage contains symbols or things that do not make sense in our current world or reality, like a beast with many heads, etc, then we have no choice but to view it as symbolic.

3. If reading a text that contains literal concepts and symbols that do exist, we should take them as literal regardless of any other preconceived doctrines we may have.

4. If number three is the case then we need to reexamine our existing doctrines and modify them to fit with LITERAL scripture.


Without following these steps to some extent we can make scripture say a more importantly, mean whatever we want. That, my friends, is a man-made doctrine.

Bible prophecy often combines something literal with something symbolic. For example:

4 beasts
1260 days
2 witnesses
42 months
7 thunders
10 horns

In fact, if we were to trace all such occurrences in prophecy we would discover that everytime a number is used the number is always literal whereas the thing associated with it is always symbolic. Since this thread is about symbolic Babylon I believe the same thing can be said about it. That is, Babylon symbolizes the end time kingdom God will employ to deceive those who have rejected the truth about the 3AM's into believing a lie and to turn upon Babylon during the plagues.

2 Thessalonians
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.