In the Bible doesn;t Paul say something like 'Babylon sends her love' or something along those lines, and he was saying this from Rome?

God Bless,
Will

Will, it was Peter and I don’t know why you think it’s Rome because that is not stated.

“12With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. 13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. 14Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.” 1 Peter 5

I never took this as literal in that Peter was making reference here to the end-time Babylon, but I will look into it.

Yes, the 144,000 is a literal number. But according to the precedence I cited above the thing associated with it would be symbolic. Thus the 12 tribes symbolize something other than literal Jews.

Thanks for the correction that it was Peter who made reference to babylon thanks for the info However Babylon killed God's people and so did\does Rome.
Babylon= anti-christ power

God Bless,
Will

[ October 04, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Will ]

Mike, there is no scriptural precedence to interpret the 144,000 as anything other than what is literal stated.

It seems like you are making this determination based on a certain pattern over what is literally stated. Why is it so difficult to believer that it means just what is says?


Will, I agree that Rome has done similar things in the past. But these things were after Jesus stated that Israel was responsible, and would be held responsible, for ALL the deaths of the prophets and saints.

So Jesus had already declared Israel to be responsible for these things long before John stated the same thing in Revelation and Rome actual did what it did.

So how can Rome be Babylon when Jesus already stated the Israel would be held responsible for the same things that Babylon is responsible for?

We can’t have two Babylon’s, can we? If not, I choose to believe Jesus and take him at his word rather than make assumptions.

Lastly, related to the last text I posted, it seems that Peter was referring to the literal Babylon, which still existed during that time. So the Babylon in Assyria is what I think he was referring to. Also, the “she” seems to be, based on many scholars, Peter’s wife, who went with him frequently.

[ October 06, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Lobo ]

Lobo, if we take everything in the Revelation literally, just as it reads, might not we run into some serious obstacles? How could you say Babylon is anything other than Babylon? How then do we determine what is literal and what is symbolic? I pointed out that in D&R whenever a number is used prophetically the number is always literal whereas the thing associated with it is always symbolic. Why would we deviate from this well established precedence in Rev 7?

Hi Mike,
Did you mean Daniel 7 or Revelation 17? In revelation 17:18 we are told that the woman is a great city that rules over kings.

quote:

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Revelation 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

---

So we know that literal Babylon will not be built again, and that this woman is 'that great city'..What great city rules over kings? What city has influence over the major world leaders?

God Bless,
Will

Will, in my last post I was referring to the 144,000 in Rev 7. But I agree with you that Babylon includes the papacy but I also believe that during the MOB crisis it more accurately symbolizes the threefold union of catholicism, protestantism and spiritualism. What do you think?

Hi Mike,
If I scrolled up abit I would have seen the references so it was a gross oversight on my part . The 144,000 seem to be those left on the earth for the following reason:

quote:

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Revelation 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

---

The scene is earth with the 4 angels and 1 sealing angel sealing the servants of God, so Iunderstand the remaining people ot be on earth to be 144,00 literal people.

We then read:

quote:

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Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

---

The 144,000 must have been carried away to meet the Lord in the air with the dead in Christ since verse 9 changes to before the throne with a great multitude which are all of God's people.

Now onto the next part:

The 3fold union is something I do see for example the rise in new age philosphy being 'preached' to people in churches.
True Protestantism is by definition protesting the papal system, but now they are runing back into the arms of rome.
In Catholicism there are idols, and there is prayer to Mary who pleads with Jesus so by defenition it is through Mary that people get to heaven. The teaching that a soul is alive after a person has died is also false, but many people believe it and it is taught as a 'truth'.
These ingredients will be combined to create the 3 fold union that we are seeing. Things like a misty cloud appearing in churches or the smell of smoke, flowers, or incense that is suppose to be 'the Holy Spirit' manifesting itself in the church are all supernatural and not of God. I have an idea of who can be pushing this a bit since if we take a closer look a lot of people prefer to watch a show and be shown something meditating upon the Word of God, and applying what God teaches us and do a little digging. SO yeah I believe that the stage is set, and only a matter of time before churches are 'sold-out' on the new ideas. I could be wrong, but the worship of idols, and life after death, and physical manifestations make me wonder what is going on. What are your thoughts on this Mike?

God Bless,
Will

Cool! I like what Sister White wrote about the threefold union and spiritualism:

GC 588, 589
Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium.

Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer.