|
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,214
Members1,326
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
9 registered members (Karen Y, dedication, Daryl, daylily, TheophilusOne, 4 invisible),
2,521
guests, and 9
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46611
07/06/03 09:48 PM
07/06/03 09:48 PM
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY WILL:
However I don't think anyone will lose their soul for eating pork.
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY DARYL FAWCETT:
That's a dangerous assumption. I prefer not to eat pork or any other unclean food and take a chance on that.
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY CHERI FRITZ:
Br. Will,
Regarding meat eating, we are in the antitypical day of atonement. Now the word typical is used to reference the earthly things which we are accustomed to and call common many times. And the word antitypical is used to describe what is of God.
Now I am going to be brief and simplify the information for you because this is actually a very lengthy study, but well worth your time. So I implore you to find out for yourself as to what our Lord desires of you and to never to be ignorant of any of His truths that He has made already known to us. The following is only a quick overview:
- 1844 Christ entered the Most Holy Place
- He begins the last of His work in the Heavenly Sanctuary
- The judgment of the righteous dead in Christ begins *Note: the living righteous are "soon" to be judged...referencing words of Mrs. White
- The Sabbath light becomes unveiled and it then becomes a test for our time
- The Laodicean('justice of the people')era begins The time of probation begins for us (to have a probationary time one must also have a judgment time when they are proven righteous)
- The time of probation begins for us (to have a probationary time one must also have a judgment time when they are proven righteous)
Now when the Israelites had the Day of Atonement they were to afflict (humble themselves) their souls. They fasted on this day when the typical (earthly) high priest was in the Most Holy Place. But we are in the time when Christ is doing His antitypical work in the Most Holy Place, where Christ is our High Priest pleading for the saints...'my blood, my blood.'
During this time of the antitypical day of atonement we are humble ourselves before the Lord and be a holy priesthood. "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" 1Peter 2:9.
Now combine this with "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew16:19 makes you begin to realize that what we are doing today will be the same things that we are doing in Heaven. This is why our work on earth which God has given us is so important. In fact, Christ sent the Holy Spirit to strengthen us so that we may be good.
Will we be eating flesh foods in heaven? Will we be killing the innocent animals to enjoy a big ole' steak? No.
So how do we know that we are to humble ourselves in the manner of refusing flesh foods?
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you." Act 3:19-22
- Repent
- Convert
- Sins not only forgiven, but blotted out (blotted is better because they can never be remembered)
- Refreshing comes from the Holy Spirit...we all need the Holy Spirit or we will grieve
- Heaven must receive us with the restitution of all things - 1 : an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: as a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
First are we sure that we are using the word good for it's actual meaning according to the Lord? Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Good is without sin.
Now here is an interesting verse: Jeremiah 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein]."
So we need to return to the old paths and take our stand before God and man. We need the good way. We need to be humble to the point where we remember that all we will do, is with a body (temple)which is directly owned by God. Will we set out to be careless with someone's elses property when we do not even own it, I pray not. We ONLY own a choice, so praise the Lord we have such blessings that we don't even deserve during our time of probation. What a kind and just God, so patient and longsuffering with a nation of people that do not deserve the grace He is giving to us freely.
AMEN,
Sr. Cheri
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46612
07/06/03 10:18 PM
07/06/03 10:18 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
I agree as well Daryl. I do not eat meat let alone any unclean meats because it is not healthy and you basically posion your body considering the high amounts of antibiotics, and sloppy quality of cattle feed that goes to feed these animals. God mentioned the specifics, and I totally agree, so I never thought that Revelation 12:17 included the levitical law as well only the moral law since that is how we know what sin is. Anyways thanks for the brief overview Cheri ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) I will pray and research this as I really do enjoy studying The Word of God. I am going to look ahead in our quarterly and see if this issue is covered in there since you mentioned we are in the antitypical day of atonement and I know that right now Christ is our High Priest and is in the heavenly Sanctuary pleading on our behalf. Thanks Cheri for the valuable info as I have heard how it works as I was growing up, but for some reason I am actually paying attention to it and wanting to learn more. So I pray that The Holy Spirit lead us and teach us in Jesus name. Thanks Daryl for creating this thread, and I hope more people post in here to get a variety of thoughts on this. God Bless, Will
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46613
07/07/03 01:34 AM
07/07/03 01:34 AM
|
|
|
Dear Br. Will, Here is a link to reading Br. Stephen Haskell's book "The Cross and It's Shadow." For those that are not familiar...Stephen Haskell is one of the pioneers in the Seventh-day Adventist Chruch. This book is about the Sanctuary, and if any of you did not understand the Sanctuary, this is an excellant book. The Cross and Its Shadow May the Lord bless the path of those that hunger and thirst after Christ, Sr. Cheri
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46614
07/07/03 11:23 AM
07/07/03 11:23 AM
|
Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
|
|
As far as pork in particular goes, quote:
Is. 66:15-17 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine?s flesh, and the abomination, [all unclean animals] and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Thus those still eating pigs and mice when Christ returns won't be going anywhere. This verse is something all our friends of other churches need to know about if they intend to prepare for heaven.
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46615
07/08/03 02:59 AM
07/08/03 02:59 AM
|
|
|
quote:
Thus those still eating pigs and mice when Christ returns won't be going anywhere. This verse is something all our friends of other churches need to know about if they intend to prepare for heaven.
The problem with this issue is that many try and make eating a moral issue, which scripture indicates it is not. What I mean is that it is not an issue related to salvation as Bob seems to indicate. Clearly, judging someone because of what they eat is contrary to NT theology:
“1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.” Rom 14
Also, from a law standpoint, the kosher laws have in fact been removed:
“14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " 17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " Mark 7
“20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.” Rom 14
“23"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.” 1 Cor 10
(Note – this was the meat market at Corinth, a very pagan city indeed! No kosher food there for sure.)
So we see that from both a judgment and law standpoint the kosher laws are not an issue.
Now some have raised the issue of health, such as Will. While this may be an issue related to the processing and handling of meat food, it’s not endemic to the type of meat. In other words, I can except that all meat may be suspect because of antibiotic use, etc.., that doesn’t mean that pork is worse for you than beef. So as far a health is concerned, all meat is on the same playing field.
Some may say that the kosher laws were given for health and therefore unclean meat would not be healthy. However, when you look back at when and why the kosher laws were given it doesn’t support that idea.
“1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.” Gen 9
Notice here that God gives man “everything”; “Everything that lives and moves will be food for you”. This means all animals. The term everything has no exceptions, it includes all.
Now what is interesting about this text is that God had already given man and/or Noah the understanding of what clean & unclean animals meant. Only clean animals were used for sacrifices (Gen 8:20).
So we see that even though God had given Noah the clean and unclean distinction for sacrificial purposes, He did not extend that to eating until Moses.
So since the clean & unclean distinction was given first for sacrificial or ceremonial purposes its basis was not health at all. So the fact is that the kosher laws were ceremonial in nature and not originally given for health reasons.
So while a case can be made today that all meats are unhealthy due to the processing, etc., it would be difficult to demonstrate from scripture that one type of animal is more or less unhealthy than another based soley on the clean/unclean label.
So for universal health reasons abstaining from meat may certainly be a good thing, but making it a moral issue or one that determines ones salvation is clearly not consistent with scripture.
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46616
07/08/03 11:20 AM
07/08/03 11:20 AM
|
Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
|
|
Lobo, How do you explain that text in Is. 66? It has to mean something. I see that you made no direct comments on the text itself. quote:
The problem with this issue is that many try and make eating a moral issue, which scripture indicates it is not. What I mean is that it is not an issue related to salvation as Bob seems to indicate.
Try telling Adam that what you eat doesn't affect your salvation.
Do note that I'm not really the one who said that those eating mice and swine when Jesus comes aren't going anywhere. Isaiah said it, which means that God said it. And since God said it, I believe it. quote:
Clearly, judging someone because of what they eat is contrary to NT theology:
The big issue in the NT was whether it was alright to eat things sacrificed to idols, not whether one could eat swine or not.
When the Judaizers accused Paul of teaching heresy (Acts 21:21), they never accused him of teaching folks to eat pork. Besides, it appears from Acts 24:14 and 25:8 that he would have denied such a charge.
But do note that even Acts 15 forbade Christians to eat blood, and things strangled. Eating blood was something not even Gentiles could do in OT times, since God forbade such to Noah and his descendents. The clean/unclean distinctions likewise go back to Noah. These kind of prohibitions were carried over into NT times, and even though someone may have accused Peter and James and Paul of judging them for eating blood, such accusations had no weight with the apostles. They had to be true to Scripture. quote:
Also, from a law standpoint, the kosher laws have in fact been removed:
Do you have a text that plainly says so? The one you quoted does not, for it speaks concerning whether eating with unwashed hands will make one a sinner or not.
Besides, the text as you quoted it has been tampered with. "In saying this, Jesus declared" does not appear in the Greek. Who authorized the publisher of this Bible to tamper with the text like that, merely to support his or her own theology?
Further, the text says "all food," or "all meats" in the KJV. Can you find a text anywhere that calls pork "food" or, in KJV English, "meat." If God never gave swine or mice to be "food," then the text doesn't apply to swine or mice.
You quote specifically 1 Cor. 10. Read 1 Cor. 8:1, 4, 7, 10; 10:19, 28. These verses make clear that the issue being discussed is meat sacrificed to idols, not swine or mice.
Since this was the big issue in Corinth, we can conclude that this was the big issue in Rom. 14. Otherwise, we have no biblical way to determine what Paul was specifically talking about in Rom. 14. Rom. 14 itself does not say what Paul is talking about. quote:
Notice here that God gives man "everything"; "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you". This means all animals. The term everything has no exceptions, it includes all.
Not necessarily. Sometimes Moses said "all," and then qualified it later.
For example, in Gen. 1 it says that man could eat the fruit of every tree, but Gen. 2 says that there was one exception. Gen. 6:19, 20 says that Noah was to bring all the animals aboard by twos, but in 7:2 it says that the clean beasts were to be by sevens.
Thus it is likely that Gen. 9 must be qualified by Lev. 11 and Deut. 14, and better yet, by Lev. 17:13. The council of Acts 15 based their decision largely upon Lev. 17 and 18, and it is in Lev. 17:13 where it indicates that Gentiles were forbidden to eat unclean animals as well as blood.
I see that you did not quote from 1 Tim. 4. When folk quote that one to me, saying that they can eat anything they want if they pray over it, I ask them if they really believe that.
I'd like to see someone who truly believes that put his fork where his mouth is. "Nothing to be refused," it says. Then grab some poison ivy leaves and make a salad. Don with your favorite dressing, garnish with diced mice, offer a prayer, and chow down.
The truth of the matter is that no one believes they can eat anything if they pray over it. To do so would be presumption.
[ July 08, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46617
07/08/03 05:33 PM
07/08/03 05:33 PM
|
|
|
quote:
How do you explain that text in Is. 66? It has to mean something. I see that you made no direct comments on the text itself.
I don’t know, it conflicts with the NT texts. But so do many other OT texts. For example, do you believe literal Israel is still God’s nation or people? If No, read Jer 31:35-37.
So I believe some prophecies were conditional, and Is 66 is one of them.
quote:
When the Judaizers accused Paul of teaching heresy (Acts 21:21), they never accused him of teaching folks to eat pork. Besides, it appears from Acts 24:14 and 25:8 that he would have denied such a charge.
You should study deeper into this issue as Paul did teach Gentiles differently than Jews. Besides, your comment conflicts with what Paul literal wrote in 1 Cor 10:25, so it is moot to argue about it.
Bob, in reading the rest of your post it just seems argumentative and contrary to scripture. You can believe what you want and discount the clear bible texts if you want, that is up to you. But as far as I’m concerned eating is not a moral issue. By making it one it diverts attention from the real issues of faith. This is a tactic I believe Satan loves.
Since you feel Paul supports your special eating habits, ;let me quote another one for you:
1 Timothy 4
”1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:”
Doctrine of devils, interesting!
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46618
07/09/03 11:02 AM
07/09/03 11:02 AM
|
Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
|
|
Re: Jer. 31:35-37. Since the olive tree still stands, and has but had most of the natural branches replaced by wild branches, I would think this passage could be literally true even today. Re: 1 Cor. 10:25. You missed the clear Bible points that I gave above that deal with this. quote:
1 Cor. 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1 Cor. 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord?s, and the fulness thereof:
When two texts on either side of the one you refer to say clearly that the issue under discussion is things offered to idols, neither you nor I have the right to say that the verse is talking about pork instead.
Re: "You can believe what you want and discount the clear bible texts if you want, .... Feel free to quote one.
Re: 1 Tim. 4. I assume you agree with my last post that 1 Tim. 4:1-5 cannot be used to support the idea that we can eat anything we want if we pray over it.
Analyzing the passage, we come up with these points, additional to the one mentioned in my last post.- Swine are never called "food" or "meat" in Scripture.
- God didn't create certain animals to be received with thanksgiving.
- Those who think otherwise either don't believe or don't know the truth.
- And if we add vs. 5, the Word of God never sanctifies the hog.
According to Acts 15, Gentiles are expected today to still do what they were expected to do in OT times, except for sacrifices. That is the biblical principle we need to apply to all these issues.
Gentiles in OT times were never commanded to be circumcised, but they were prohibited from eating blood and pork, as pointed out above.
Re: "But as far as I'm concerned eating is not a moral issue. By making it one it diverts attention from the real issues of faith." Yet Adam would say differently, as I pointed out above. And: quote:
Acts 15:19, 20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:28,29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
If you are correct that eating is not a moral issue, though Adam got kicked out of the garden over that topic, why did the apostles say that these things were "necessary," three of the four which have to do with eating?
Every NT verse you quote must harmonize with the NT repetition of the OT prohibition against eating blood. If you say we can eat anything, then why can't we eat blood?
[ July 09, 2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46619
07/09/03 03:16 PM
07/09/03 03:16 PM
|
|
|
quote:
Re: Jer. 31:35-37. Since the olive tree still stands, and has but had most of the natural branches replaced by wild branches, I would think this passage could be literally true even today.
Sorry Bob, but Jeremiah did not have replacement theology in mind when he wrote that. He meant his people. The idea that gentiles would replace Israel in prophecy was a western idea originating from Rome around 200AD. But that is another issue.
quote:
When two texts on either side of the one you refer to say clearly that the issue under discussion is things offered to idols, neither you nor I have the right to say that the verse is talking about pork instead.
Bob, the context in which Paul made that statement was indeed related to food to idols, but his statement was not qualified and was empirical. In other words, saying that one can eat anything sold in a pagan meat market is an empirical statement in and of itself. If Paul had meant only kosher food sold in the meat market regardless of whether it had been offered to idols, he would have stated that.
The fact is also that when the Jerusalem council Officially accepted gentiles into the faith they gave them only four requirements, of which three were the kosher laws Acts 15:19-20). So if you want to make a case that the kosher laws also apply to gentiles (who are also not Jewish converts), then you have to show some biblical proof that they were given the kosher laws, commanded to keep the kosher laws, or even just instructed on the kosher laws. Yet, that just isn’t the case, is it?
quote:
Re: "You can believe what you want and discount the clear bible texts if you want, .... Feel free to quote one.
Gee, I thought I did. Here, I’ll do it again:
“25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.”
So lets see, Paul states we can eat “anything”, “everything”, “without raising questions of conscience”. Seems very clear to me. Contrary to what you tried to rationalize, there are no exceptions to the terms “anything” or “everything” accept as stated in Acts 15. And Paul did not qualify his statements further here. So we are left to believe exactly what he stated.
quote:
Re: 1 Tim. 4. I assume you agree with my last post that 1 Tim. 4:1-5 cannot be used to support the idea that we can eat anything we want if we pray over it.
It would depend on the situation. If you were starving in a place where you could not get other food, I believe God would protect you no matter what you ate or how poisonous it was. However, as a general rule I believe that your point, while being accurate, is not what Paul was referring to.
Paul was not trying to say that we could make things that are poisonous un-poisonous by praying over it. What Paul was saying is that all food was acceptable after we give thanks for it. So the key word here is “food”. Things that are poisonous were not used for food or considered food. So anything that was considered food could be eating.
Now, my point about this text was in verse 3 about the idea of special eating habits. The judaisers made a point of trying to force Jewish laws on gentiles (Gal 2:14) and the kosher laws were one. Remember, forcing gentiles to follow anything from the Torah that was not included in the Jerusalem council was considered a “burden” (Acts 15:28). So Paul here is reiterating his position that gentiles should not be made to follow Jewish laws or modification of Jewish laws.
quote:
Analyzing the passage, we come up with these points, additional to the one mentioned in my last post.
1. Swine are never called "food" or "meat" in Scripture.
2. God didn't create certain animals to be received with thanksgiving.
3. Those who think otherwise either don't believe or don't know the truth.
4. And if we add vs. 5, the Word of God never sanctifies the hog.
1. Contrary to your position, 1 Tim was not written for Jews. Paul at this time ministered exclusively to gentiles. So the fact that pigs were not called “food” for the Jews is really not an issue because it was not Jews Paul was addressing.
2. This is conjecture, as this is not stated in scripture. However, after the flood, of which unclean animals were saved on the ark, God told Noah that he could eat “everything that lives and moves”; that would include unclean animals as well. So whether unclean animals were created originally for food or not, God allowed it prior to Israel.
3. This is a judgment call that does not belong in our discussion.
4. True, sacrifices were always clean animals. That is why the clean/unclean distinction is ceremonial and not for health reasons.
quote:
According to Acts 15, Gentiles are expected today to still do what they were expected to do in OT times, except for sacrifices. That is the biblical principle we need to apply to all these issues.
You may want to actually read Acts 15 before you make an inaccurate statement like that. Only four things were required and none related to the inherent qualities of the food accept for blood. In other words, the clean/unclaen distinction between animals was not given to gentiles. Your attempt to take these four very specific things and apply them to all the kosher laws in not what is stated in scripture.
quote:
If you are correct that eating is not a moral issue, though Adam got kicked out of the garden over that topic, why did the apostles say that these things were "necessary," three of the four which have to do with eating?
Bob, I go by what is written in scripture, not what is not written. So I agree that the four things instructed to Gentiles in Acts 15 are “necessary”. However, on what BIBLICAL basis do you apply any of the other koshers laws to gentiles when clearly other things were considered a “burden”?
quote:
Every NT verse you quote must harmonize with the NT repetition of the OT prohibition against eating blood. If you say we can eat anything, then why can't we eat blood?
We can eat everything as stated by Paul unless “everything” was qualified by other information. As you pointed out, clearly blood was specifically qualified as being an exception to “everything”. Yet, we don’t find that same qualification for the type of meat eaten anywhere in the NT, why? Because it wasn’t an issue.
You see Bob, scripture indicates that we should not take away from it’s meaning. But it also states that we should not add either. By implying that we need to follow something that was never required, while other things specifically were required, you are adding to scripture. That is a no-no my friend.
Lastly, Adam was specifically told not to eat of the tree, so that has no bearing on our conversation as gentiles have never been specifically told to only eat kosher food or obey ALL the kosher laws. The fact that only a few kosher laws were required indicates that all the kosher laws were considered, but were rejected as being a “burden”.
|
|
|
Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46620
07/10/03 11:04 AM
07/10/03 11:04 AM
|
Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
|
|
quote:
Sorry Bob, but Jeremiah did not have replacement theology in mind when he wrote that. He meant his people. The idea that gentiles would replace Israel in prophecy was a western idea originating from Rome around 200AD.
But: quote:
Romans 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
If Isaiah could be very bold on the grafting in of the gentiles, then I would think that the later prophet Jeremiah could know something of that topic as well. quote:
... but his statement was not qualified and was empirical.
Are you willing to say this about all Scripture? Jesus said that we must hate our parents. He didn't explicitly qualify that. Does that mean it shouldn't be qualified?
I also gave you a few examples from Genesis where unqualified statements are later qualified, as in taking the animals on the ark only by twos, and in Adam being able to eat of every tree. quote:
So if you want to make a case that the kosher laws also apply to gentiles (who are also not Jewish converts), then you have to show some biblical proof that they were given the kosher laws, commanded to keep the kosher laws, or even just instructed on the kosher laws.
I understand why you say so, but I believe this is incorrect.
Acts 15 doesn't say that the Gentile converts must abstain from murder, does it? Nor stealing. But those issues weren't under discussion in Acts 15. These were moral principles still considered to be binding.
When Acts 15 doesn't explicitly say that any other requirements were laid upon these converts, we must still qualify Acts 15 by other Scriptures.
And this is indeed what you do regarding 1 Cor. 10. 1 Cor. 10 says we can eat "anything," but you say that "anything" does not include blood.
My point remains this: That Gentiles in OT times were required to abstain from blood and unclean animals, and that whatever they were required to do in OT times they are still required to do, except for sacrifices.
If you want to prove my position wrong, you need to either demonstrate that there is an OT law for Gentiles that they don't have to keep in NT times, or demonstrate that they could eat pork in OT times. Can you do so?
That they were commanded to abstain from pork in OT times is clear: quote:
Leviticus 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
Plus, if Noah had eaten one pig or elephant after the flood, there wouldn't be any left today. Thus the prohibition against eating pork was never just "Jewish."
Noah was told that he could eat every remes (whatever those were), not every animal.
quote:
Gee, I thought I did. Here, I?ll do it again:
The text you quote is about "meat" sacrficed to idols, and pork is never called "meat" in the Bible. Additionally, it never says "pork" or "swine" in the verse.
In light of the fact that Is. 66 says that anyone eating pork when Christ returns shall be lost, we need to have a clearer verse than the one you mention.
Find a text that calls pork "meat" or "food," and that specifically says that we can eat "pork" or other unclean animals.
It is your choice to call Is. 66 a conditional prophecy, but in light of the fact that not one verse in all the Bible explicitly says that pork is now "meat" or food, and lawful to eat, such a position is quite risky. quote:
What Paul was saying is that all food was acceptable after we give thanks for it.
RE: this and your comments on my four points:
1. Find a text that explicitly calls pork "food" for anyone, Jew or Gentile.
2. My second point was not conjecture. Did God create rats and slugs to be received as food with thanksgiving? If you come over to my house and I offer you a plate of boiled slugs and fried rats, will you heed your interpretation of "nothing to be refused" and "ask no question for conscience sake"?
3. It isn't a judgment call. It's part of the text. The text says that these things are so for those who "believe and know the truth." If someone doesn't believe and know the truth, this this passage is not for them.
4. If the word of God never sanctifies the hog, as you admit, then the hog is not under discussion in 1 Tim. 4.
1 Tim. 4 is a prediction of the papal apostasy, which forbids their priests and nuns from marrying, and which used to forbid the eating of even clean meat on Friday.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
