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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46681
08/16/03 01:29 AM
08/16/03 01:29 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
How can Paul?s statement here (2 Cor 6:17) not be connected to marriage, but his statement in 1 Cor 10:25 must be connected to food offered to idols? You are being inconsistent.
No, for in 1 Cor. 10:25 we have Paul's own words, and in 2 Cor. 6:17 we have his quotation of another Bible writer's words that in and of themselves are not directly connected to marriage.
Paul takes that OT passage and applies the "separate" part to marriage. The part about not touching the unclean thing he does not explicitly apply to marriage. If you disagree, please tell us what unclean thing he was talking about.
As far as after the flood goes, the passage says that every remes that liveth could be eaten. You'll notice that the first chapters of Genesis speak of remes as if that category of creature did not include all animals.
You are correct that the prohibition against blood was not the only precept given at that time. They also were forbidden to eat animals that were already dead. quote:
Next, if the idea was to have no unclean animals, that failed miserably didn?t it.
I don't understand this statement. Of course scavengers were needed after the Flood, but not for sacrifices or for eating.
So you really think Noah had 7 gazelles on board for sacrifices, not for eating? There doesn't seem to be any reference in the Bible to sacrificing game animals, except on one occasion: after the Flood. So I don't think we can assume that the extra clean were taken onboard only for sacrifices. quote:
Gentile converts to Judaism or those living inside the Jewish communities has no bearing on gentile people living outside the Jewish communities or gentiles as a people.
Prove it. Thus far this has only been conjecture on your part.
The fact that Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 are only addressed to Israelites, and that the reference in Lev. 17 mentions what it does only in passing, suggests that it was already well understood that these precepts applied to Gentiles. quote:
The FACT is that gentiles as a people were not given any of the OT laws other that that of Noah ( Ps 147:19-20)
Prove it if you can. You really don't know what all God told the Gentiles, and neither do I.
Obviously, they knew enough for the 3 wise men to come from afar. Ancient Chinese characters mirror biblical stories and prophecies. We only have a glimpse of the light the Gentiles had.
Some things got obscured over time, but some of the myths still have a grain of truth. It was a woman in one story that opened Pandora's box and brought evil upon the world. Another story has a woman eating something she shouldn't that brings the evil. Achilles dies by a wound to the ankle, like the prophecy that foretold that Satan would bruise Christ's heel.
quote:
So unless you also believe these things will be occurring on the new earth, then you are mistaken about the timeframe.
Or perhaps you are mistaken in your time frame. Some of the events described take place at the second coming, not in the new earth. The dead bodies lying around would take place then.
Bottom line is that this passage says that if you're still eating that filthy dirty swine when Christ returns, you won't be going anywhere. quote:
This is contrary to scripture.
But I showed you how Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 give holiness as the reason for abstaining. Are you saying that Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 are against Scripture? I don't understand what you mean.
I already dealt with Matt 15:11, remember? Eating poison does defile our body temple. Eating too much of a good thing is called gluttony, and will keep us out of heaven, according to Paul. But it's the choice to eat it that defiles the soul, not the food itself.
Regarding Acts 15, remember how we already discussed that one too? Acts 15 isn't telling us that Gentiles can murder and steal and lie, even though the four necessary things didn't include those precepts. So not everything was mentioned in that chapter that gentiles are required to keep.
quote:
You are correct, because pork by itself was never the issue. The issue was all meat that had previously been considered unclean.
Well then, please cite some passage that explicitly mentions that we can eat unclean animals as defined by Lev. 11 and Deut. 14. If you can do that, then the case is closed.
quote:
Paul saying to eat "anything" sold in a pagan meat market ...
Can you prove that Paul was not talking to any Jews? Are you suggesting that the church in Corinth had no Jews in the congregation? Or are you suggesting that Jews now could eat swine, even though Peter had never done so years after the cross?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46682
08/25/03 09:39 PM
08/25/03 09:39 PM
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quote:
As far as after the flood goes, the passage says that every remes that liveth could be eaten. You'll notice that the first chapters of Genesis speak of remes as if that category of creature did not include all animals.
Remes = “creeping things, moving things, creeping organism” (Strongs)
“9 And he said to me, "Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here." 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things [remes] and detestable animals and all the idols of the house of Israel.” Eze 8
Sorry Bob, looks like “remes” was used for unclean things. So there is no basis to believe it did not include all animals as the term “all” indicates.
quote:
quote:
Gentile converts to Judaism or those living inside the Jewish communities has no bearing on gentile people living outside the Jewish communities or gentiles as a people.
Prove it. Thus far this has only been conjecture on your part.
“19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.” Ps 147
Consider it proven!
quote:
quote:
The FACT is that gentiles as a people were not given any of the OT laws other that that of Noah ( Ps 147:19-20)
Prove it if you can. You really don't know what all God told the Gentiles, and neither do I.
“14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15"Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." Acts 14
Consider it proven!
quote:
quote:
So unless you also believe these things will be occurring on the new earth, then you are mistaken about the timeframe.
Or perhaps you are mistaken in your time frame. Some of the events described take place at the second coming, not in the new earth. The dead bodies lying around would take place then.
Contextually my understanding is accurate.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46683
08/30/03 06:58 PM
08/30/03 06:58 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charlene Van Hook: [QB] Counsels on Diet and Foods----PG- 392 694. The tissues of the swine swarm with parasites. Of the swine, God said, "It is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." This command was given because swine's flesh is unfit for food. Swine are scavengers, and this is the only use they were intended to serve. Never, under any circumstances, was their flesh to be eaten by human beings.
Good quotes Charlene The actual name of the organism is the trichina worm, which is a parasite. It likes to burrow into your joint linings,and muscle tissue; and cause slow destruction, leaving people to think they have rheumatism; when in fact, they have "hogmatism." ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46684
09/01/03 09:39 PM
09/01/03 09:39 PM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
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Topic of this thread: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork? The present standing of the SDA church on this subject was adopted during the latter part of the 19th century. There had been much discussion on whether-or-not the laws of Moses concerning clean and unclean meat should should apply today. Uriah Smith, among others, was strongly opposed to that. It was finally agreed that we should not be bound by the Moaic law, but instead take our stand on the much broader principles of health, as stated in verses such as Romans 12:1 and 1 Corinthians 10:31. This was readily accepted by all since by then it was generally agreed in recognized health circles that the eating of such things as pork and bottom-feeding fish was not healthful. This demonstrates how God has dealt with His people on matters of health over the centuries. He did not help them find new and dramatic discoveries; for His primary goal has always been to reach the heart with the message of saving grace. BUT NOTE THIS WITH CARE: God has ALWAYS pointed His people to THE BEST MEANS OF PRESERVING AND RESTORING HEALTH AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. This was true in ancient Israel, and it was true with the instructions given through Ellen G. White. Out of the many choices available, God always pointed to the best; but He did NOT reveal any NEW scientific discoveries to His prophets. Many are confused on this issue today, and point to the so-called "sin" of using modern medical procedures and drugs, instead of the 19th century "natural remedies" Ellen White pointed to as the very best means available at that time. Note her use of the then-new MIASMA (bad air)theory as the BEST of several 19th century THEORIES for the cause of disease - a theory which led to developing greater cleanliness, resulting in better health. quote:
If a house is built where the water will settle around it, remaining for a time and slowly drying away, there is a poisonous MIASMA continually rising from the damp ground, which breeds sore throat, fevers, ague, or lung diseases. CTBH.107
So far as possible, all buildings intended for human habitation should be placed on high, well-drained ground. This will ensure a dry site and prevent the danger of disease from dampness and MIASMA. MH 274.
But EGW progressed in her use and recommendations as new scientific discoveries proved practical. By accepting miasma (bad air) as the cause of disease in the mid-19th century, she directed us toward cleanliness as a major need in maintaining health. And she pointed out the need to avoid "poisonous drugs" in an attempt to heal.
This led to establishing the Battle Creek Sanitarium as somewhat of a "Natural Remedies" facility.
But by the time Loma Linda was chosen as the location for a new medical school; she had accepted the "germ theory" for the cause of infectious diseases, received several x-ray treatments for a skin condition, had been given a smallpox vaccination, and was suggesting the school be set up so graduates would be fully qualified as ALLOPATHIC physicians, rather than naturopathic.
Concerning this she wrote, quote:
A time will come when medical missionaries of other denominations will become jealous and envious of the influence exerted by Seventh-day Adventists who are working in these (medical) lines. They will feel that influence is being secured by our workers which they ought to have. Ellen White in ME 4/1/1910.
That is being fulfilled today in a most wonderful way.
Let's use the writings of EGW in a common sense way.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46685
09/02/03 08:34 PM
09/02/03 08:34 PM
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quote:
This demonstrates how God has dealt with His people on matters of health over the centuries. He did not help them find new and dramatic discoveries; for His primary goal has always been to reach the heart with the message of saving grace.
Stan, I totally agree. To abstain from any food on the basis of health is appropriate. However, you are making assumptions when you say that the clean and unclean foods distinction was for health. The fact is that this distinction was first given for ceremonial reasons, not health. In fact, the first time it was given was for Noah and animals for sacrifices not eating. However, it must have been in place even sooner because of the sacrifices Cain and Able made. It was not until Moses that the clean and unclean distinction was extended to animals related to eating.
So to say that the clean and unclean distinction was for health is to discount its original meaning.
Also, even when it was extended to food the distinction was clearly still ceremonial, for example:
“If anyone touches something unclean-whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean, detestable thing-and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD , that person must be cut off from his people.” Lev 7:21
Clearly touching someone who is considered unclean, like a women during her period (Lev 12:5), clearly is not a health issue. And so the unclean distinction is ceremonial in nature as Jesus clearly points out:
“14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " 17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?” Mark 7
I find it very interesting that Jesus called his disciples “dull” who could not get this concept:)
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46686
09/03/03 12:56 AM
09/03/03 12:56 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 148
Naches, WA
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Lobo, I choose not to discuss OT restrictions on this thread. My emphasis above was to show how SDAs developed our health policies based on eternal PRINCIPLES, rather than on the Mosaic law. But I do believe God provided people in OT times with the very best instructions available for living healthful lives and avoiding the spread of communicable disease. Read again what I wrote about develoment of SDA health policies based on Bible principles: quote:
It was finally agreed that we should not be bound by the Moaic law, but instead take our stand on the much broader PRINCIPLES of health, as stated in verses such as Romans 12:1 and 1 Corinthians 10:31.
On that basis, we try to avoid many things not included in the Mosaic law, and include many health practices not listed there.
Christ lived a PRINCIPLE-based life. I pray we will ask the leading of the Holy Spirit in doing the same; for PRINCIPLES are eternal.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46687
09/03/03 03:41 PM
09/03/03 03:41 PM
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Stan, what “eternal principles” are you referring to and how are they supported scripturally?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46688
09/03/03 10:22 PM
09/03/03 10:22 PM
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Lobo:
Do you eat port and why? If you were among the children of Israel in the wilderness would you have asked for quail?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46689
09/04/03 01:54 PM
09/04/03 01:54 PM
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Greg, I’m not sure what “port” is, but if you mean “pork” I would say no. If you review my posts you will see that I have no objections to people limiting their diets for health reasons. My objection is when people make that a moral issue that applies to all. That is what I object to and what I believe scripture objects to as well.
So for my own health reasons I rarely eat anything that you would consider “unclean” in the OT. In fact, I don’t even eat beef. But I don’t believe it’s a moral issue and don’t judge others who do eat these things.
Greg, if I was in the wilderness I would have asked for manna. I believe nothing could compare to the health benefits of a food that comes directly from God.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46690
09/06/03 04:47 AM
09/06/03 04:47 AM
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Was it Jesus that gave the pork laws? Why did He give them in the wilderness? Was it a moral issue in the OT?
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