Thanks Mike and Will, however, I don’t see how you have addressed the texts previously posted. Those text literally imply that Jesus was created and they refer to the time of creation or before the creation of the world. So they can’t mean his 1st advent.

Also, how can Jesus be a “Son” if he has been around as long as God the father?

Lastly, if Jesus was created, why does that not make him God? God the father could have infused him with all power and glory so he is God.

If God the Father can do anything, why couldn’t he create another God?

Hi Lobo,
Jesus CHrist was appointed, ordained, and set forth to be the Savior, The Messiah. Here is a verse:

quote:

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John 1:1-4,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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God Bless,
Will

Lobo, the way I understand those texts referring to Jesus as a created being or the son of God is since He "inhabits eternity" (Isa 57:15) whatever has been or will be is always true of Jesus from eternity past to eternity future. The truth about Jesus has always been true and will continue to be true throughout eternity.

Jesus is "the lamb slain from the foundation of world" has always been true. And Jesus is "the son of God born in Bethlehem" has always been true from eterntiy past regardless of our time table and calendar. Jesus has always been the incarnate, created son of Mary and God. But at the same time He has always been a member of the eternal Godhead - life unborrowed and original.

Does that make sense to anybody else besides me?

Mike, I don’t disagree with you, but I read Isaiah 57:15 as being eternity forward. I don’t see how this can be applied back in time. Also, the “foundation of the world” means creation of the world.

Also, you have not answered my question about why it makes Jesus less God to believe he was created?

Technically, in the case of God, eternity has no beginning or ending, whereas in the case of created beings it has a beginning but no ending. So, if God inhabits eternity it must necessarily include past, present and future aspects of eternity. And if Jesus is truly God then it applies to Him.

Would Jesus be a lesser being if the Father created Him? Yes and no. He wouldn't be equal to the Father so in that sense He would be a lesser being. But if He were a special species of being, one of a kind, then He would be at least greater than other created beings.

The problem with this idea though is that the Bible plainly says Jesus created everything in heaven and earth - this can only be true if Jesus Himself is uncreated and eternal.

Ephesians
3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation
4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Hi Lobo,
I admire your desire to study The Word of God, but in good faith I wanted to let you know that when talking about Jesus Christ we need to remember that He made us, and it's a no no to reduce Him to our level since we ourselves are created beings, and I say this because we must have reverance before The Lord, so this is not coming with negative conotations, but more like a 'look out!'
We as humans are limited in everything, but God is eternal. Jesus Christ is the I AM, now when you read that He is, and He has always been , and always will be, so I think Christ was demonstrating His eternal existence when He said before Abraham was, I AM .

Mike I agree 100% with what you have said. Amen!

God Bless,
Will

Mike, I always took these texts to be referring to the heavens as celestial bodies, planets, stars, etc., not the heavenly dwelling of God the Father.

If these text refer to Jesus creating “the Heaven” or dwelling of the Father, then where did the Father reside before that was created? And is there any scripture to indicate that when and/or how God’s dwelling in heaven was created?

quote:

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Hi Lobo,
I admire your desire to study The Word of God, but in good faith I wanted to let you know that when talking about Jesus Christ we need to remember that He made us, and it's a no no to reduce Him to our level since we ourselves are created beings, and I say this because we must have reverance before The Lord, so this is not coming with negative conotations, but more like a 'look out!'

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Will, why does a discussion of whether Jesus was created lower him or not show reverence? Can one God not create another God and endow him with all the same powers he has?

Don’t get me wrong, Jesus is MY God and I worship him as such, because that is what scripture indicates is God the Father’s will, so that is not an issue.

So functionally the outcome of this discussion doesn’t change anything.

Because you are talking about the 'Creator' not the created, and as for gods creating other gods.. I think that's in mythology isn't it?

God Bless,
Will

So you are saying that God could not create another God even if he wanted to?

Create a God equal to yourself?

Would you do that, if you could, with all the equal power that another God equal to God would possess?

I definitely wouldn't!