Will, I’m not asking you to believe scripture, you can believe what you want. And also, I in no way am denying the deity of Jesus. It’s just his origin that we are discussing.

In any case, neither you nor anyone else has been able to address Proverbs 8. So it still stands.

If you or anyone else can address it, please do.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, I’m just searching and cannot resolve this passage at the moment. However, unlike you I don’t pretend it doesn’t exist either.

Truly studying for truth means that you must be willing to look at the difficult passages and maybe even adjust your existing theology if further light is revealed.

Lobo,
As for the Firstborn over all creation If you study your Bible you will know that this is referring to His resurrection..

As for the verse you quoted:

quote:

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22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began

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I am really starting to seriously doubt at your reading skills here. Where did you get the idea He was born as in birthed, or created? How on earth did you come up with such an idea. It doesn;t even come cloase to saying that. You need to understand and know who Christ is first to grasp these texts....
Adressed point by point and succinctly.

God Bless,
Will

Thanks Will, no need to knock yourself out. But if you have some texts that may shed some light on this text that would be great.

I edited the post.. I will post some stuff Ihave at home saved in my a file. It is really interesting and sheds some light on a lot of things, so I will provide tonight, and try not to knowck myself out.

God Bless,
Will

Hi Lobo,
To address Proverbs22:8. The Lord brought forth does not mean Christ was created. WHen reading that passage you wil lnotice that verse 23 reads that He was appointed from eternity, so this shows the opposite of what you are reading into it.
If it was through Christ that all things seen and unseen were created, and if in the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and in Genesis 1:1 it starts in the beginning God the weight of the evedince in scripture points to Christs eternal existence.
God The Father appointed His Son as king of Kings and Lord of lords.
You need to read scripture precept upon precept, and line upon line. It can be daunting, but the Bible covers all we need to know.
WHat is more interesting is that in the Bible we find that the world was round instead of flat like many of the 'advanced' civilizations had once thought. Anyways just abit of info, but I hope this helps.
God Bless,
Will

Will, while I don’t think you are correct about Proverbs 8, I have done some more reading and feel comfortable that it DOESN’T reflect Jesus as created and in fact is not even about Jesus at all.

If you read all of proverbs 8 it is clear that contextually this passage is about “wisdom”. So being created and being at creation, etc. refer to wisdom and not Jesus.

So thanks for the assistance on this issue. This is another thing I have learned as a result of this forum.

what exactly did you learn?

Just what I just stated.

I leaned that Proverbs 8 is referring to wisdom that comes from God the father and not about Jesus. So it further supports the idea that Jesus was not created but has always been part of the Godhead.

Well how can you love wisdom more than God, and who does the leading wisdom? I understand your view in giving God glory is very limited and far and between, but thats on you..Enjoy

quote:

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Proverbs 8:17-21
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures

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Will, the book of proverbs to called the “Book of Wisdom”. In many ways it is not meant to be taken literally in that many of the passages deal with deep issues like wisdom. Chapter 8 refers to the wisdom that God imparts and how God gave birth to wisdom for man to start understanding at creation.

Do you understand?