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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47022
11/03/03 09:13 PM
11/03/03 09:13 PM
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quote:
He also draws lines between Abraham and Isaac where God's covenant promises are concerned. These are distinctions the Bible doesn't make.
“Genesis 21
”12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”
What does this mean my friend? “offspring” means lineage. So while you want to trace this back to Abraham in some feeble attempt to support your point, God clearly stated that the line of Israel was “reckoned” or counted from Isaac. You don’t have to believe it, and I’m sure you won’t. But that is what is stated.
quote:
While the Mosaic covenant was originally made with the Israelites, its purpose was to bring in other peoples from other lands as well; it wasn't only to be with the children of Israel exclusively forever.
“14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD . Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.” Ex 31
“Forever” has not ended yet, sport!
quote:
That the covenant with Israel was not to be exclusive can be seen in many Bible passages:
Requiring those gentiles that lived near Israel to keep certain covenant laws does not constitute giving the convent to all gentiles.
Sorry.
Scripture states: “19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.” Ps 147
quote:
Also the distinctions Lobo makes between the promises that come through Abraham and Isaac are artificial, not Bible-based. The same promises that are to be realized through Abraham are to be realized through Isaac too: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3:16. Christ came through the lineage of Isaac. So the promises to be realized through Abraham, which were to be fulfilled in Christ, were the same as the promises to be realized through Isaac, since Jesus was descended from Isaac too. It's all the same.
If this were the case then those from the line of Isaac would be automatically part of the convent promise to Abraham, yet scripture states:
“3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.”
So we see that the natural children are from Isaac and are not automatically part of the Abrahamic covenant. Sorry.
quote:
Lobo says, "This is why it is technically incorrect to say that we are 'spiritual Israel'. The reason would be that Israel started from Isaac, not Abraham."
I would have to disagree. This is an artificial distinction, as noted above. The whole thing boils down to Christ, who was descended from both Abraham and Isaac, so it makes no difference. As Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." John 4:22. Gentiles who are saved are "graffed in" (Romans 11:17,19,23,24); all are saved by grace through faith.
You would do well to re-read my post. I am not talking about salvation, as you and others here who do not understand this issue have asserted.
This is about who is who in prophesy only.
Scripture is clear and you are confused:
Gentiles:
“24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,’ they will be called 'sons of the living God.' " Rom 9
“9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.” Rev 7
Israel:
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." Roma 9
“2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.” Rev 7
quote:
But it is entirely proper to call a Christian a "spiritual Jew". Paul says so in no uncertain terms:
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28,29.
Typical proof-texting with out regard for the author's actual intent. The informed reading will note this statement of Paul just prior to the text John quoted above: “17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew;”
Gee, don’t think Gentiles call themselves Jews back then. So clearly we know that the context of the proceeding statements were for Jews and not Gentiles.
What manipulation in order to prove ones point and skew the word of God. Sad!
Well it was a nice try, but I think scripture has and does prove you incorrect.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47023
11/03/03 09:35 PM
11/03/03 09:35 PM
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OP
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Deer Park, WA
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Who is the King of the Jews? The promise/covenant between God and the seed of Abraham applies to whom? Who is the seed?
The name Israel means "Prince of God." If Christ is your King and you are His child, you are a prince of God. Either you are a member of His kingdom (a citizen of the heavenly nation) or you are without hope. Paul says, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners (gentiles), but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." -- Ephesians 2 19-20. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. Why? Because, if not born from above, they are not God's children and therefore not "Princes of God."
Dave
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47024
11/03/03 09:50 PM
11/03/03 09:50 PM
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OP
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Also, the name Israel designates one who is an overcomer, which is also highly applicable. To make more sence of the name, it might help to realize that Sarah's name (which means princess) is right in the middle. Forgret about mother Mary. Spiritually, Sarah's name is more important.
I got this info from Pastor Morris Lewis, who was quite fluent in the use of Hebrew (just so you know that I'm not just making stuff up).
Dave
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47025
11/03/03 09:56 PM
11/03/03 09:56 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, what difference does geneology make now that Jesus has commissioned the church to preach the everlasting gospel of the new covenant?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47026
11/03/03 10:37 PM
11/03/03 10:37 PM
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Mike, you are one of the few very reasonable folks on this post, so I’m sure you can understand this.
Your question relates to the gospel. All men are the save in relation to how they are saved. So we are not talking about salvation or the gospel.
This issue relates to prophesy and who is who in regards to last day events.
My position, and I think it is well supported, is that in prophesy gentiles are gentiles and Jews are Jews. Now some think I’m saying that the literal nation of Israel remains God’s only special people, and that is NOT what I’m saying.
Scripture is clear that there are basically four groups:
1. The saved Gentiles = i.e Rev 7 (Many nations, languages and peoples)
2. The saved Jews = The remnant of Israel
3. The lost gentiles = Kings of the world, etc.
4. The lost Jews = Babylon (an issue for another topic)
Notice that saved Israel is a very small group.
So all I’m saying is that when prophesy states Gentiles, that is who it means. And when it states Israel, that is who it means.
Many tend to make these terms symbolic, but those Jewish believers who wrote the bible were very clear and very literal.
PS – Dave, you are confused. This issue is about prophesy and not about salvation or the kingdom of God. As Paul states the remnant of literal Israel are Jews (Rom 11:1-6). So unless you are anti-Semitic you should not try and twist scripture and take Paul at his word.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47027
11/03/03 11:06 PM
11/03/03 11:06 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Yet in 1 Thessalonians states the following: quote:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The faithful people of God that remain and are alive on earth are the same as the 144,000.
There are 2 sets of people that will be caught up in the air the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those that are alivre and remaining. So the remnant are not just literal fleshly born lineage of Israel, but those that are alive and remain
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47028
11/04/03 12:25 AM
11/04/03 12:25 AM
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That is contrary to what scripture states.
Nowhere does it say that the remnant OF ISRAEL are those that remain alive. NOWHERE!
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47030
11/04/03 02:18 AM
11/04/03 02:18 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, thank you for explaining your position. I agree with you that Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. So can you please explain to me what Paul meant when he wrote:
Romans
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47031
11/04/03 10:09 AM
11/04/03 10:09 AM
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OP
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Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
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Lobo Writes:
"Dave, you are confused. This issue is about prophesy and not about salvation or the kingdom of God. As Paul states the remnant of literal Israel are Jews (Rom 11:1-6). So unless you are anti-Semitic you should not try and twist scripture and take Paul at his word."
Lobo, that is very ad hom. and hardly deserves the dignity of a reply. If your argument was as rock solid as you think, you wouldn't be resorting to personal attacks on the character or intellect of others.
As a matter of fact, I do take Paul at his word -- they are not all Israel who are of Israel. Is someone the child of Abraham just because they are of Jewish descent? Jesus said that if they were Abrahams children, they'd do the works of Abraham. Who did Jesus say was their father? I take Paul at his word -- the children of the flesh, these are not the children.
If not all believers are Irael, then why does Paul say in Galations chapter 4 that we are the children of the free woman (in Isaac's line) while literal Israel are the children of Hagar (Ishmael's line)? Oh, it's an allegory. You mean to tell me that Paul is attaching symbolic meaning to OT history? Of course.
You need to become more familiar with the way Paul interprets the OT. He is quite consistent in his teaching that whether evangelistic, or prophetic, Israel are all of God's people.
You simply cannot separate promise, covenant, salvation, inheritance, and prophecy. Paul certainly makes no distinction. If you do, you miss the point of what Israel is all about. You can't base your arguments on mere technicalities. By doing so you miss the big picture regarding the principles that are opperating throughout the scriptures.
One last thing I'd like to add: I am in no way an anti-semitic. I have no hidden agenda against the Jews. God's invitation of mercy is open to them and He has in no way forsaken them. If you want to make personal attacks, do so on another forum. This is the wrong place for that.
Dave
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