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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47032
11/05/03 04:24 AM
11/05/03 04:24 AM
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quote:
So since we are Christ's we are of Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, and these people are the faithful people of God. Nothing contrary here firm rock is where I have my feet planted.
Will, yes, that is correct. However, being Abraham’s “seed” has nothing to do with Israel because Israel’s “seed” is “reckoned” or counted from Isaac (Gen 21:12).
So I wholeheartedly agree that we are Abraham’s seed, that just doesn’t have anything to do with Isaac’s seed.
Understand?
quote:
Lobo, thank you for explaining your position. I agree with you that Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. So can you please explain to me what Paul meant when he wrote:
Romans
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Mike, I have to say that I very much appreciate your Christ-like behavior on this forum, I really enjoy your posts and feel that you are honest in your questions.
Thanks
Now, to answer your question, Paul here is talking about those who are literally from the seed of Isaac, Jews (vs 3). So what he is saying is that just because one is literally a Jew does not make them automatically the children of promise or Abraham’s seed.
Notice that Paul first calls Jews “Abraham’s seed”. Then, he states that they are not Abraham’s seed but are “reckoned” from Isaac. So he is saying that while they (Jews) may consider themselves Abraham’s seed, they are actually Isaac’s seed.
He then goes on to explain the “Abraham’s seed” are those of faith and not works. He then explains (vs 24-29) that both Jew and Gentile can be Abraham’s seed though faith.
So the message to take away from this is that neither Jews nor Gentiles are Abraham’s seed unless they have faith in Jesus. So if Jew’s are not automatically Abraham’s seed, then we cannot technically call the saved group of Abraham’s seed Jews or Israel. Because Israel, as Paul pointed out, is technically from Isaac, not Abraham.
So if Israel is technically Isaac’s seed, then by calling ourselves Israel we are saying that we are not Abraham’s seed and therefore not in the saved group. So Abraham’s seed are all believing nations (including believers from Israel), and Isaac’s seed are just non-believing Jews.
So to be very specific, we should call ourselves “Spiritual Abraham”, but NEVER “Spiritual Israel”.
Make sense?
Dave, I’m not going to get in a shouting match with you. My comment that you were confused had to do with my post, not your mental capacity. In other words, you are not understanding my position. And based on your last post, I see you still do not understand what I’m saying. Maybe I’m not being as clear as I could be?
Let me just say this, when you read Romans 9 did you miss the part about who Paul was referring to when he stated “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”? Paul clearly states this a few verses prior: “For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.”
So contextually we have to understand that Romans 9:6 is about the people of Paul’s own race, “the people of Israel”.
So Paul saying that not all Israel is of Israel means that not all literal Jews are considered “real Jews”. So he is excluding Jews in this passage and it has nothing to do with Gentiles. He is saying that he only considers the people of his own race as “real Jews” if they have faith in Jesus. So Paul would consider most non-believing Jews today as not real Jews.
Understand?
I would encourage you read Mike’s post and follow our conversation as he clearly understands what I’m saying.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47033
11/04/03 07:14 PM
11/04/03 07:14 PM
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OP
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
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I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Paul's statements are regarding what makes a "real" Jew. Just like Jesus says in John chapter 8: "I know ye are Abrahams seed...but ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8: 37, 40-41, 44). Paul is reasoning from a principle -- that fleshly lineage is not what the covenant is based on. At what time in the OT did the covenant's basis switch from the promise based upon faith to literal geneology?
I'm not saying that geneology was not a factor. As descendents of the keepers of the true faith, the literal Israelites were on vantage ground. Why? Because they had the advantage of a true knowledge of God -- if they would avail themselves of it. As literal Jews, had they been faithful, God certainly would have honored His promises to them. They broke the covenant, He didn't.
How do you separate the covenant from prophecy? The history of Israel illustrates the history of any of God's people. If we are faithful (the true Israelites) we'll be established. If we are not (fleshly Israel) we'll be driven from the land. Also, there are examples in the Bible of how prophecy is conditional. God sets before us life and death -- the outcome of our choices determines how we fulfill prophecy. Irael could have accepted the Messiah. God forsaw that they wouldn't. He NEVER ordained that they wouldn't, however. That was their choice and as a result, rather than the King of Kings, they chose Caesar. History will repeat itself on a broader scale.
Isaiah 56: 6 shows that the gentiles also can be partakers of the covenant. How? By becoming circumcised. "And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you" (Exodus 12: 48-49) What does it mean that they had to be circumcised? "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked" (Deuteronomy 10: 16). "Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, ahsll not his uncricumcision be counted for circumcision?...For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2: 26, 28-29).
What is the significance of the stranger (gentile) being circumcised? It has nothing to do with God not wanting him to encourage non-compliance among the Israelites with the rules of the covenant. It means that as one who's heart has been renewed by God, he is as one who is homeborn and worthy to partake of the covenant. If he is as one who is homeborn, God considers him a Jew. The covenant to the Israelites was a type of the promise God extends to all who believe in Him. God, through the covenant, was not trying to exclude people, but rather to reveal how to be included into His family -- through the righteousness of faith. Isaac was the progeny of faith and all those who are of faith are in his bloodline.
I would like to add, however, I do agree that there will be a remnant of literal Jews who will compose a portion of the remnant. That would only be consistent with how things operate in their history.
One last thing: Am I correct in saying that the remnant are composed of the (relatively) small group of Israelites who will be save?
Dave
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47034
11/04/03 09:35 PM
11/04/03 09:35 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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The Bible states that in end times the remnant keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Could it be a variety of races? It could very well be.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47035
11/04/03 11:00 PM
11/04/03 11:00 PM
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quote:
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Paul's statements are regarding what makes a "real" Jew. Just like Jesus says in John chapter 8: "I know ye are Abrahams seed...but ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father...Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8: 37, 40-41, 44). Paul is reasoning from a principle -- that fleshly lineage is not what the covenant is based on. At what time in the OT did the covenant's basis switch from the promise based upon faith to literal geneology?
Dave, sorry, but you still are not getting what I’m saying.
Jesus in John 8 is talking about literal lineage, and Paul is talking about covenant lineage. And I agree, the Abrahamic covenant was not based on lineage, that is what Paul is saying. But what you are missing is that he is saying that to JEWS! His race!
So Jesus was saying that the Jews were from the physical line from Abraham, and Paul is saying that while they may be from this line, they are not part of the COVENANT automatically by race. And Paul reinforces that idea by stating that they are technically from Isaac as far as the covenants are concerned.
Here, maybe going over the text Paul quoted will help:
“8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." 11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Gen 21
Notice that Abraham was worried that the “inheritance” was going to go to Hagar’s son (Abraham’s son out of wedlock) and not Isaac (Abraham’s son out of faith). So God then put his mind at ease by saying that the line of Israel (for inheritance) would come from Isaac.
Now Paul in Romans 9 is using the analogy of inheritance as synonymous with the covenant of grace or the Abrahamic covenant.
For example, Paul using this same analogy in Galatians:
“15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.” Gal 3
So the point is that Paul was saying that while the physical line of Israel may be to Abraham (vs 7) the “inheritance”, which is the Abrahamic covenant of faith, is not accessed through lineage but faith. So as far as the abrahamic covenant (inheritance) goes, Israel is from the line of Isaac and therefore has not advantage over any non-Jew.
So again, this brings us back to the idea that as far as the Abrahamic covenant of faith goes, Israel has no claim to it because they are from the line of Isaac.
Does this help explain my position better?
Also, Yes, I believe, just like is stated in Revelation, that the small group of 144,000 literal Jews will be saved. This is the remnant of Israel. Sad that only such a small number will make it, but I certainly feel that it will give God pleasure to know that at least a few of the original Israelites will make it after all that He has gone though with them.
quote:
The Bible states that in end times the remnant keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Could it be a variety of races? It could very well be.
Will, how can that be when Rev 7 clearly states that they are one group from the literal tribes of Israel?
What tribe are you from?
God was very specific in Rev 7 for a reason, so YOU would know he was not being symbolic but literal.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47036
11/05/03 12:29 AM
11/05/03 12:29 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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So the servants of God who are sealed which numbered 144,000 are only Jews which is the only group of people left on earth? It is an interesting passage, so there are a couple of things to note:
1. the 144,000 are the only ones left on earth that are sealed by God.
2. the 144,000 are the only Jews left on earth that are sealed by God.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47037
11/05/03 12:31 AM
11/05/03 12:31 AM
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Why do you think they are the only one’s left on earth?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47038
11/05/03 01:29 AM
11/05/03 01:29 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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The setting in Revelation 7 starts off quote:
Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Now the next part is a 'message' to the 4 angels holding the 4 winds (winds of strife?)
quote:
Revelation 7:2
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
So the sealing angel is telling the angels holding back the 4 winds to not do anything yet (remember they have a job to do to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea
Next we see who is going to be sealed:
quote:
Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Seems self explanatory and the 12 tribes are listed in verses 5-8.
Next the scene changes all of a sudden before the throne
quote:
Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
So what happened so quick and fast that the scene changes from earth to Heaven immediately?
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 gives some insight to what will happen:
quote:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So when Jesus comes the dead in Christ will rise first (no one can number this amount), and the ones remaining (servants of God who have been sealed) will be caught up in the air.
We know that the 4 angels holding back the 4 winds who were to harm the sea and the earth were told not to do anything until the servants of God were sealed. The servants of God are the ones who remain on the earth, and they are 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel, so I will list the 12 sons of Jacob and the tribes listed in Revelation.
Jacobs 12 sons:
quote:
Genesis 35:22
22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard [it]. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun:
24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin:
25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:
26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these [are] the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.
The 12 listed in Revelation 7:
Judah
Reuben
Gad
Asher
Nepthalim
Manasseh
Simeon
Levi
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph
Benjamin
You will notice that Manasseh is in Revelation, and Ephraim is missing and Dan as well, and Manasseh was not mentioned as one of the 12 sons of Jacob.
That is why I believe there will be a small amount of faithful people of God who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ on the earth at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47039
11/05/03 03:36 AM
11/05/03 03:36 AM
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OP
Banned Member
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Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
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So then, what does Paul mean when he says that ALL Israel will be saved?
Dave
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47040
11/05/03 05:26 AM
11/05/03 05:26 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Could Paul mean both spiritual and literal Israel? This is confusing indeed for me and it wold be easy for me to say that the 144,000 is literal Israel from the 12 tribes as stated in the Bible, but the scene is on earth and there are 144,000 faithful servants of God. I am not to sure what to make of this exactly, unless we are all dead, and only those from the 12 tribes remain? Sort of confusing indeed, so by reading on what the Second Coming of Christ is going to be like we should be able to get an idea i.e. Not a secret, will be tempestous, every(good & bad) eye shall see Him, graves will open up and the dead in Christ will rise first, the faithful will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.
Anyways Israel means 2 things it could be spiritual or flesh.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47041
11/06/03 04:23 AM
11/06/03 04:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Mullbock:
So then, what does Paul mean when he says that ALL Israel will be saved?
Dave
Remember, Paul only considered True Israel to be those who are faithful and beleiev in Jesus. So "all Israel" would be the remnant. In other words, Paul did not consider those who did not believe in Jesus as really Jews, so all Israel would be only those Jews who believe in Jesus.
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