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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47042
11/06/03 04:28 AM
11/06/03 04:28 AM
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quote:
So what happened so quick and fast that the scene changes from earth to Heaven immediately?
Will, you have come across an issue that you are not going to like. Many feel that the great multitude in heaven occurs at the same time as the sealing of the 144,000, which means a pre-tribulation rapture. In other words, this great multitude was raptured to heaven before the tribulation and only the remnant remain to try and win further souls to heaven.
I know this idea is contrary to SDA doctrine, and I myself do buy into it completely either. But it is something to consider.
As far as 1 Thess 4, why do you think that goes with Rev 7 since there is no apparent connection to the resurrection stated in Rev 7?
quote:
You will notice that Manasseh is in Revelation, and Ephraim is missing and Dan as well, and Manasseh was not mentioned as one of the 12 sons of Jacob.
Will, are you saying that Manasseh is where gentile believers fit into the remnant?
Interesting, I will have to look into that. Manasseh was the son of Joseph and was considered a “half-tribe” as far as the inheritance of the promised land, Num 34:13.
Lastly, Will, when did Paul say the term or indicate that there was a “spiritual” Israel? He seems to indicate that there is a spiritual Abraham, who he calls the “children of promise”, mean the promise to Abraham. But I don’t find anything in his writings to indicate that he believes there is the same spiritual application to Israel, or the line of Isaac.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47043
11/05/03 05:57 PM
11/05/03 05:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Lobo, Yeah these verses are something indeed, and is a topic I am looking into carefully with prayer. Something interesting in Revelation9: quote:
Revelation 9:1-4
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
This looks like a closer look exactly at what will happen to the wicked specifically, since they donot have the seal of God on their foreheads, whereas the faithful do.
Ahh yes the good ol' pre-trib,trib,post-trib rapture dispensation. It is interesting, and fascinating, but I just do not recall Jesus Christ ever mentioning that His coming will not be noticed, or that it would be in secret.
I know the texts used by this i.e. 2 in the field and 1 is taken, 2 in bed and 1 is left.. 'Behold He comes like a thief in the night' (which just confirms tha tno man knows when His coming will be)
You said:
quote:
As far as 1 Thess 4, why do you think that goes with Rev 7 since there is no apparent connection to the resurrection stated in Rev 7?
Well thre is a common thread between 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 & Revelation 7 due to a couple of instances:
1. Both talk about a group of people who are faithful and are alive and remain.
2. The combination of the resurrected dead in Christ (from the beginning of time) which is going to be a very big amount and the faithful that are alive and remain that appear before the throne and the Lamb are an innumberable amount.
As for the differences in tribes in Revelation 7 compared to the Jacob's children it baffles me really, but I didn't know Mannaseh was considered a half tribe?
Also hypothetically speaking could this be what Paul meant that the Gentiles would be grafted into the Olive branch? Or was this more specific to the fact that Israel had rejected Christ and God chose the Gentiles to proclaim the Gospel? Which by the way I think that there is a verse in scripture which indicates (i'm paraphrasing here) that 'there jealousy will be sitrred up to where they want to do it' something like that..
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47044
11/05/03 07:16 PM
11/05/03 07:16 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I believe Sister White's inspired insights are critical in cases like this where our unaided human minds have a hard time grasping the meaning of God's word.
Marantha
Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire--so resplendent is it with the glory of God--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. {Mar 328.1}
None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." {Mar 328.2}
They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat." Revelation 7:14-16. {Mar 328.3}
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47045
11/05/03 07:21 PM
11/05/03 07:21 PM
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quote:
This looks like a closer look exactly at what will happen to the wicked specifically, since they donot have the seal of God on their foreheads, whereas the faithful do.
Yes, that is the difference between the plagues and the tribulation; plagues are for the lost and the tribulation is for the saved.
quote:
Ahh yes the good ol' pre-trib,trib,post-trib rapture dispensation. It is interesting, and fascinating, but I just do not recall Jesus Christ ever mentioning that His coming will not be noticed, or that it would be in secret.
I know the texts used by this i.e. 2 in the field and 1 is taken, 2 in bed and 1 is left.. 'Behold He comes like a thief in the night' (which just confirms tha tno man knows when His coming will be)
Well, those that really believe in the pre-trib believe that the “ever eye will see him” text only applies to those still on earth. They also believe that the text that shows Jesus coming back with “holy ones” are not angels but the pre-trib ruptured people (1 Thess 3:13, Jude 1:14).
I don’t necessarily go for all this because the tribulation is for believers, and if no believers are here, who is being tribulated? No one!
quote:
As for the differences in tribes in Revelation 7 compared to the Jacob's children it baffles me really, but I didn't know Mannaseh was considered a half tribe?
Also hypothetically speaking could this be what Paul meant that the Gentiles would be grafted into the Olive branch? Or was this more specific to the fact that Israel had rejected Christ and God chose the Gentiles to proclaim the Gospel? Which by the way I think that there is a verse in scripture which indicates (i'm paraphrasing here) that 'there jealousy will be sitrred up to where they want to do it' something like that..
Yes, that is something I haven’t looked into before. I suspect it will be an issue related to the inheritance of the promised land and what those actual tribes did doing that time. So there is probably a reason why Manasseh is included and Ephraim and Dan are out. However, I don’t see any connection to Gentiles in the NT or old other than the Abrahamic covenant of promise. If you find one let me know.
As far as Israel, I don’t quite agree with you summary. God did use Israel to proclaim the gospel: Jesus and the disciples were literal Israel, so they did just that. Those from Israel that did not believe have just excluded themselves from the gospel, no one removed them.
So now the group proclaiming the gospel is not gentiles or Jews its “the children of promise”, which is all nations including believing Jews.
I believe this is the text you are looking for:
“11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” Romans 11
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47046
11/05/03 07:33 PM
11/05/03 07:33 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I believe the phrase "and so all Israel shall be saved" means "the children of the promise" or "the election" shall be saved. That is, all those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.
Romans
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47047
11/05/03 08:13 PM
11/05/03 08:13 PM
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OP
Banned Member
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
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This post was edited to correct some spelling errors.
Lobo writes:
"So now the group proclaiming the gospel is not gentiles or Jews its “the children of promise”, which is all nations including believing Jews. "
So, who is the child of promise? I only recall Abraham having 2 notable sons: Isaac and Ishmael. Which one was promised to Abraham? What was the promise based on?
Lobo, you are totally missing the point of what Paul is saying and getting hung up on technicalities. How can you possibly fail to realize that Isaac is the child of faith? Isaac, as the child of faith (and therefore the child of promise) stands at the head of all those who are born of faith. Why? Because the basis of the new birth is the same as his -- faith in God.
The idea behind the covenant with Israel is not that God in any way wants to show some sort of arbitrary favoritism. It is to reveal the plan of salvation. That is what the covenant is about -- to show the way to the heavenly Canaan. All of the OT history is to show, step by step, how God will deliver His people and bring them not into some earthly kingdom, but the heavenly. You can not seperate the covenant made with Israel from salvation. It's about salvation!
The history of Israel is to show the history of the world. "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword" (Isaiah 1: 19-20). It's not too difficult to recognize that both Israel (literal) and the world are floating down the Jordan.
Also, you can't make a distinction between the seed of Abraham (children of faith) and Isaac because the Bible says, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called" and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Genesis 21: 12 and Galations 3: 29). Why is it so hard for your reasoning to come full circle?
One thing you might want to consider (and would give you tremendous insight into the Bible) is that history is in itself prophecy. Solomon realized this: "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind retruneth again according to his circuits (wow, science has provent that!). All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1: 5-9). If you want to know what's going to happen in the world, look at what's already happened. Look at the history of Israel. You will see some parallels with the universal Church. The Hebrew almost always teach spiritual truth through physical means (rather than abstractly like the Greeks). That is what Israel and its history is about.
Dave
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47048
11/05/03 10:45 PM
11/05/03 10:45 PM
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quote:
I believe the phrase "and so all Israel shall be saved" means "the children of the promise" or "the election" shall be saved. That is, all those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.
Mike, why are you ignoring that Paul’s intended audience for this passage was Jews?
“1I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”
Sorry Mike, but “my own race” is very specific and not in reference to gentiles as Paul was a Jew.
So contextually, to be consistent we have to say he was talking about literal Israel being “all saved”. And given Paul definition of what a true or real Jew was, he only meant those faithful to God.
quote:
So, who is the child of promise? I only recall Abraham having 2 notable sons: Isaac and Ishmael. Which one was promised to Abraham? What was the promise based on?
“4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.” Gen 17
The children of promise are all nations who are believers in Christ, because the covenant or promise was for just that, all mankind! And Paul clearly rules our Israel’s attempt to claim this promise as theirs alone by saying they are from Isaac and not Abraham.
quote:
Lobo, you are totally missing the point of what Paul is saying and getting hung up on technicalities. How can you possibly fail to realize that Isaac is the child of faith? Isaac, as the child of faith (and therefore the child of promise) stands at the head of all those who are born of faith. Why? Because the basis of the new birth is the same as his -- faith in God.
And you seem to be totally ignoring the actually COVENANT PROMISE! What was that my friend? State it for me?
What? THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS”.
You are being just like the Jews who feel that they have sole claim to this covenant because they came from Abraham, but that is NOT what Paul stated.
He stated: “6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
Do you know what this phrase means? It means that contrary to their idea that they are the descendants of Abraham, they are actually “offspring” of Isaac.
You seem to be ignoring what is literally stated in favor of some preconceived idea. Paul here CLEARLY is stating that Israel is the line of Isaac and therefore has NO claims to the promise.
That is why he goes on to say this even clearer: “8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.”
I don’t know how to say this any clearer.
quote:
Also, you can't make a distinction between the seed of Abraham (children of faith) and Isaac because the Bible says, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called" and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Genesis 21: 12 and Galations 3: 29). Why is it so hard for your reasoning to come full circle?
Dave, what can I say, you clearly aren’t getting this.
Here, let me try something else:
Paul says to Israel, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called".
WHO’s SEED? ISAAC! NOT ABRAHAM BUT ISAAC!
Then Paul then states, “"if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".
So who is Christ’s seed? ABRAHAM’S SEED!
And who is Abraham’s seed? ALL BELIEVERS (MANY NATIONS) (GEN 17) WHO ARE IN CHRIST.
Are non-believing Jews Abraham’s seed or Isaac’s seed? ISAAC’S SEED BECAUSE ONLY BELIEVERS (“IF YE BE CHRIST’S”) ARE ABRAHAM’S SEED.
And do most Jews believe in Jesus? NO!
So how on earth can they be Abraham’s seed? THEY CAN’T!
Do you hear me now?
quote:
One thing you might want to consider (and would give you tremendous insight into the Bible) is that history is in itself prophecy……..
Dave, I would suggest that you stop looking at the big moral concepts in scripture long enough to just listen to what the writers are literally saying. You are sitting there try to draw deep connection in all this while ignoring what Paul is literally and clearly saying.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47049
11/06/03 01:33 AM
11/06/03 01:33 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Abraham (Abram before God changed his name) had 2 sons Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was born from a promise God made to Sarah (remember she was barren..) quote:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is HAgar.
25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
verses 22-31 reveal who the 2 are.. one are the unbelieving Jews of Israel (Ishmael), and the other who is free represents the believing Jews AND Gentiles(Isaac to whom God promised His everlasting covenant).. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47050
11/06/03 08:21 AM
11/06/03 08:21 AM
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OP
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Deer Park, WA
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You are right. Paul is absolutely clear. Abraham's seed is reckoned in Isaac. Therefore, if we are Abraham's seed, we are reckoned in Isaac. It's that simple. Just because Abraham is the father of many nations doesn't mean that the Gentiles are not counted with the true Israel. We are one nation with them. Or else Paul never would have called us fellow citizens (Ephesians 2: 19). How can we be fellow citizens if we are of different nationalities? Names are not without deep significance in the Hebrew. Israel means Prince of God or One Who Prevails With God. The name applies to anyone who shares those traits of character.
So what is your take on Exodus 14: 21-22?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47051
11/07/03 04:03 AM
11/07/03 04:03 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Do you mean who made up the children of Israel that crossed the red sea?
God Bless,
Will
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