Kevin, would you be willing to address my last post to you on this thread? especially this part:

quote:

---

However, I am not so sure about the cycles idea. Suggesting that the virgin birth or the early-latter rain prophecies should have been fulfilled at the time they were given, way back then, seems to undo the prophecies themselves. Do you see what I mean? Wouldn’t it do away with the type and antitype aspect of prophecy? Jesus referred to Jonah’s fish experience as a type and antitype, and yet, until He made this application, there was no indication it meant Messiah would spend that much time in the grave.

---

I don't have much time on the computer now, and I've had a long day and too tired to think (although that has not stoped me in the past): but the consept of Type and Antitype are on the right track, but they were invented by Catholic Theologians during the dark ages who was recognizing a very definate principle, which scholars are now saying would be more accurate to see the cycles.

As for the virgin birth, in the cycles it is the theam of the child that comes from the promice of God. You probably know the controversy over the exact words over the Isaiah text, but the theam is that, like with Sarah being too old, but she did not need working equipment, the promice of God could still produce Issac. Jesus was the ultamate child of promice, who could be born to someone who was actually a virgin. But the theam that cycles around is the child of promice.

As to the early/latter rain; read the chapter "Destroyed for lack of Knowlege" in Prophets and Kings. There have been different times cycling around that "could have" been the end. Deuteronomy 4 (if you have a good translation) sees the exile as the last days. Jesus did indeed mix together signs of the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the world, as they COULD have been the same. Paul gives expressions of exptecting to live to see the Lord come. This was not mearly wishful thinking. Revelation tells how the church lost it's first love and gives a theam of "Preach again!" If the church was to have worked on "Preaching again" the latter rain and last days could have taken place then. As the issues are becoming universal, and the whole world ends up facing the same types of issues as Daniel and his friends faced, or similar issues to the ones met by the Christians in Asia Minor when Revelation came, it will be accompanied with the latter rain promices.

Jesus again was comparing the cycle of Jonah in the creature to himself. What is spooky is when you look into the ancient beliefs, just as Jonah was in the sea creature for three days, so Baal was killed by the sea creature for 3 days. Jonah was going to pagans, and went through a pagan cycle which really impressed them to listen to his message.

But isn't that the problem with assuming certain prophecies could have been, or should have been, fulfilled in the same generation it was given? I mean, there are specific details, within certain prophecies, that limits its fulfillment to a specific person, time and place. Otherwise, if a prophecy can mean anything and everything then it means nothing at all. Generalizing a prophecy removes it from the realm of the divine and places it on par with good guessers, or worse. But when a prophecy includes specific and detailed information about the future, then all guess work is eliminated. Not even Satan can peer into the future and get specific details right. It's the details that make certain prophecies divine. But if we ignore them, or generalize them, we essentially destroy their divine origin. Do you see what I mean?

Actually it does the opposit, instead of guessing, as we see what could have happened, we can evaluate if we are making a proper application for as to what is or what will happen. I know that our applications are correct (or at least in the correct ballpark) while those looking for the rapture are not correct from study of the original setting.

Kevin, it would be nice to go through the major prophecies to see if and how they should have been fulfilled in the generation it was recorded. I can see this working for some of the prophecies, but not all of them. The virgin birth, for example, was not possible in the case of Isaiah’s wife. Can you list Daniel’s main prophecies and time periods and briefly, very briefly, explain how they should have been fulfilled, beginning with the first era possible? Of course, since this thread is about the IJ, I am most interested in the prophecies relating to it.

I don't know if I'll have time over the next couple of days to answer Mike, but about 90% of the answer can be found in reading the chapter "Destroyed for lack of knowlege" in Prophets and Kings and and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in the SDABC.

The other 10% would consist of noticing that there are two possible plans, which I can "Land Theology" and "Exile Theology" and looking for local events that hold possibility of application of these major overviews that are presented in those two chapters.

As for Isaiah 7, notice that the context was that king Ahaz was worried about two kings. Isaiah was hoping that King Ahaz would start trusting in God, and came with a message of hope. Ahaz was too wishy washy to want to commit, so Isaiah offered the sign of a young woman going to have a baby and before the baby was old enough to know right from wrong, these two kings that worried Ahaz were no longer going to be a threat.

If we look at this prophecy as primarily the birth of Jesus, we run into the situation of Isaiah promising deliverence from these two kings in about 700 years. Could you imagine someone going to Pressident Bush and saying "Don't worry about Saddam and Osama, in 700 years they will be history! In 700 years you won't have to worry about them again!" Yet we have no problem with having Isaiah say the same thing.

As for Daniel, we have two chaistic structure. Chapters 1-7 and chapters 8-12. Chapters 1-7 are focused on 4 kings and fits Deuteronomy (especially chapter 4) expectation of the exile being the last days, however chapter 7 begins to start to be open to the possibility of the 4 not merely being the 4 kings, but kingdomes.

Chapters 8-12 expand the 4 to definatly kingdoms (although Chapter 8 does still hold to the possibility of the exile being the last days) by chapter 9 we learn that the exile will not end by a second great exodus lead by the messiah, but that there will be a return to the land and 70 cycles of land theology again.

I am worried that we are getting off the topic of the Investigative Judgment which we should discuss here, so let's start a new thread on questions about cycles, type and antitype etc. (I put the etc to cover the poor application of the principle under the terms "dual" and "Multiple fulfillment" while I named the good applications of "cyclic thought" and "type and Antitype")

So sorry, Kevin, to be getting off the topic. If you open another thread, please do so in a public forum, since I am not a member and am thus barred from certain forums and discussions.