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What is the Truth About Cycles, Type and Antitype Etc.?
#47280
12/12/04 11:20 PM
12/12/04 11:20 PM
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Here is the new topic as requested by Kevin. I am also placing Kevin's post here from the other topic. quote:
Posted originally by Kevin:
Anyway, cyclic thought is what we are finding in ancient thought patterns. Type and antitype is how Catholic Theologians in the dark ages attempted to explain what they were seeing, of course not knowing about how the ancients thought. The idea of Duel and Multiple fulfillments are a futher attempt, but gets farther off the track than Type and antitype.
Cyclic thought sees things coming around again where we can apply the same principles, and if there is something to be done, but we failed to do with it first came, that it will come around again so that we can do it.
Type and Antitype sees a local application, but a more fuller application at later times. The main problem with type and antitype is that we can find types and antitype.
The streanth about type and antitype is that it does point to a specific local application that teaches about the grander fulfillment that is coming.
The problem with Duel and Multiple Fulfillment prophecys is that it has prophecy meaning this and that and that and that and that... which is WRONG! What we have is a specific event that the prophet has on mind, and the specific event is part of the living word of God which we can turn to for guidance when we come to similar situations, and in the great theams of redemption we find Jesus doing things that fulfills the principles beyound the wildest dream of the prophet.
Let me take the example we have been turning to about the prophecy in Isaiah 7. We don't have Isaiah talking about the event in his day, Jesus, and if another prophet someday is rased up and makes an illustration and pointing to the birth of a child as a sign for it. Isaiah was specifically talking to king Ahab trying to get him to trust in God to deliver from the specific kings he was worried about, the king of Israel and the King of Syria. Had the king trusted, we later have a story of a king who trusted and found that God was able to provide an amazing deliverence. God wanted to do the same for Ahab, but Ahab refused. God still delivered, but the method for deliverence in the time of unfaitfulness was the horrible Assyrians, a bigger threat than these two kings.
This left with in the living word of God a feeling that this promice was not fulfilled quite as gloriously as God wanted to fulfill it, and thus had a dangling hope of more to come. In Jesus we find a child of promice which was indeed God with us in an even greater way that what was offered to Ahab.
Let me move on to another illustration. In the Advent movement, the dark day and red moon in 1798 and the big event of falling stars in 1833 were seen as a sign of the end. Now as we have crossed 206 years since the dark day, and 171 years from the falling of the stars, people are starting to downplay these events.
But when we look at cyclic thought, we can study the context of the original prophecy. It was just after Jesus said that the temple was going to fall. He was talking to his disciples. Since the fall of the temple usually meant the end of the worshiping the god of the temple.
The sun, moon and stars would have been understood by the disciples as the false gods that the gentiles worshiped. Jesus was predicting that dispite the fall of the temple, that it was not going to be the end of the worship of the true God, but that the fall of the temple would usher in the end of the worship of these false gods. The specific prediction was how these 12 men listening were to bring the gospel to the world and how the worship of false gods would fall to the light of the gospel. And when the gospel is preached into all the world then shall the end come.
These disciples did indeed start to bring the gospel to the world. Paul, in the book of Romans said that the gospel actually was spread to the whole world, but we notice that also in Romans that Paul said that he would like to find the time to bring the gospel to Spain. This indicated that the disciples did not understand the full scope of the world that the gospel was to spread to. Had they seen Spain and Norway, and Japan as part of the world they were to bring the gospel to, the fall of the temple could have also been the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus.
We find this in Revelation. The book of Hebrews MAY have been written to explain the great dissappointment of 70 AD. Revelation ballanced the message of Hebrews by emphesising the preaching again, and again predicting the dark sun, red mood and falling stars, and how the world could have ended during those days.
The church did not preach again, and began to settle down. As we come to the late 1700s and early 1800s we find some amazing things happening. Mrs. White, in Great Controversy, talks about the events in the sky in 1798 and 1833, but then she makes a dramatic turn of emphesses. She then points out how on earth during this time we find the great mission societies and great Bible societies forming. This was a time of mission work to the pagans that can only be compaired to the days of the disciples. Indeed the false gods were falling to the light of the gospel. Had this continued, and maybe done a little better, and had we studied the passage of the prophecys when God called our attention to them through the events in the sky, it would have brought us to the same truths that Mrs. White pointed to, we could have put added emphesses and support to these mission societies and we did not need to have a great dissappointment as Jesus could have indeed have come about 1844.
But there is still not the full fulfillment of this prophecy, and thus we can look at this prophecy and know that we will indeed see another great wave of mission work that can only be comparable to the work of the apostels and the work of these great missionaries of the late 1700s and early 1800s, but which will be the great antitype of these great types, and this great mission thrust will indeed meet the fulfillment of the gospel being spread into the whole world and the end coming!
I hope this helps.
Please continue this discussion here.
![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif) Thank you.
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Re: What is the Truth About Cycles, Type and Antitype Etc.?
#47281
12/13/04 01:18 PM
12/13/04 01:18 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Interesting post, Kevin. There are many avenues to pursue here… I do see your ideas about the cyclical fulfilments, the repeated “calls to the Church” and God’s determination to try to reach the people repeatedly.
I few questions and thoughts:
1. What do you mean by “The main problem with types and antitypes is that we can find types and antitypes?” Is this a typo or??
2. The fall of the Greco/Roman gods and its accompanying civilization happened well into the sixth century AD, not 70 A.D. Could you mean the beginning of the fall if pagan Rome, the “cutting of it’s kite string”?
3. Was not the fall of the Temple in Israel due to the withdrawal of God’s protection of the Messiah-rejecting Jewish state? Also, the Jews did not worship Roman gods; I fail to see how it can be said that “the fall of the (T)emple would usher in the end of the worship of these false gods.” This would also negate the Catholic welding of overtly Roman pagan god worship and ritualism. Can you further develop what you mean, please?
4. Your idea that “…This indicated that the disciples did not understand the full scope of the world that the gospel was to spread to.” is a bit unfair to those men. We always think that ancient men were not aware of each other, but evidences in the last century have proven otherwise, in spite of the lingering effects of Medieval European isolationism. Have you read Dr. Ben Wilkinson’s masterpiece “Truth Triumphant”? In it you will find that they (or I should say their students, the “Church in the Wilderness”) most certainly did know the world, from Scotland to Japan. Here in Borneo, the inland tribes once coveted certain trade beads, some used to be valued as much as a man’s life. Archaeologists ascribe a certain priceless bead found among the Borneo tribes deep in the jungles to Assyria, making them 2000 years old. Look on the map where Borneo is as compared to modern day Syria. Traders knew how to get her long before 747’s!
5. The comparison of the “the great mission societies” of the pre-Millerite days is flattering to them but caution is suggested. The Bible societies of the mid 19th century had their function as Bible suppliers and door openers, and praise Him for their labours, however, our joining with them would have been an utter compromise with Bible principles: they taught an incorrect Gospel. God knew this; therefore He sent the Church a Messenger and Present Truth.
Perhaps you meant to “ride their wave” and go in where they had “softened up the beaches”.
6. You said “…Jesus would have indeed come about 1844.” Well….it had to have been afterward, and the conditions are described here: (my punctuation)
“Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844,
a) held fast their faith and
b) followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God,
c) receiving the message of the third angel and
d) in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world,
They would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the advent believers yielded their faith. . . . Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history!” {Ev 695.3}
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Re: What is the Truth About Cycles, Type and Antitype Etc.?
#47282
12/15/04 10:17 PM
12/15/04 10:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
6. You said “…Jesus would have indeed come about 1844.” Well….it had to have been afterward, and the conditions are described here: (my punctuation)
Just a comment on this one. I think the point is not that Christ could have begun His work in the MHP earlier, hence he could have come earlier. So your statements would still apply, but in a different context. That is, the faithful people might not have been "Adventists," the time would have been a different time, etc.
These thoughts that Kevin is sharing are new to me. What I find most interesting about them is I have believed for a long, long time that God is working to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible. And the judgment will show, I believe, that God succeeded, given how people have chosen to respond. But had people chosen to respond differently, then things could have been different, and sin could have been brought to an end more quickly.
Another thing I like about the thoughts is that it goes along with the idea that God is not arbitrary. He did not set in stone certain dates and events, but foresaw different paths that could be taken and prophesied about what He saw. Different paths could have been taken to fulfill the prophesy, but we only see in retrospect the path that actually was taken. That doesn't mean a different path could have been taken though.
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