No, Tom , it doesn't dent the truth. Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We are born again with all the fruits of the Spirit, with all the righteous attributes of God's character.

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Of course we're not born again fully mature or totally developed - but neither was Jesus. He began perfect and He beccame perfect as He grew and matured. The same is true of converted Christians.

Mike:No, Tom , it doesn't dent the truth.

Tom:But it does put a dent in the idea that after we are converted we no longer have any selfishness, doesn't it?

Mike:
Of course we're not born again fully mature or totally developed - but neither was Jesus. He began perfect and He beccame perfect as He grew and matured. The same is true of converted Christians.

Tom:But Jesus didn't have any selfishness to renounce, did He? So we are NOT completely like Christ was when we are born again, are we?

Jesus desires we renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek him. This is only possible if we recognize we have selfishness to renounce. If we think we are rich and in need of nothing, we will never to do that, will we?

Of course Jesus wrestled with "selfishness" in the same way born again believers do. He possessed the same fallen flesh nature we do, which continually bombarded Him with selfish thoughts and feelings. "Selfishness" is, in this case (and in the case of born again believers), nothing more than the temptations generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.

I noticed you enclosed "seflishenss" in quotes, when referring to Christ. In Ellen White's quote, there were no quotes around "selfishness".

quote:

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Jesus desires we renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek him.

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We have actual seflishness to renounce, not just the temptations of our fallen human nature. Temptations from a fallen nature are not the same thing as "selfishness".

What Ellen White's quote brings out is that there are deeper levels of motivation that should inspire us to live for Christ than the selfish ones we have when we were first born again. These selfish motivations are the milk that Paul refers to; they are our egocentric preoccumaption with getting to heaven, being ready for Christ's return, and so forth. Everything is "me, me, me" just like a little child.

The meat is a concern for God; for His reputation; empathizing with His pain; wanting His suffering to come to an end; wanting Him to receive the honor and glory which He is due.

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I assume you meant to type suffering instead of suggering in your last paragraph/sentence, so I corrected it. - Daryl

[ October 08, 2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Tom, I disagree. All selfishness is inherited and/or cultivated. When we're born again our cultivated habits of character, our old man mind, is crucified and buried. That's what Paul wrote. The only thing that remains to tempt us with selfishness is our fallen flesh nature.

Also, here's what Sister Whit wrote about the rewards of seeking and serving Jesus:

SC 21, 22
Oh, let us contemplate the amazing sacrifice that has been made for us! Let us try to appreciate the labor and energy that Heaven is expending to reclaim the lost, and bring them back to the Father's house. Motives stronger, and agencies more powerful, could never be brought into operation; the exceeding rewards for right-doing, the enjoyment of heaven, the society of the angels, the communion and love of God and His Son, the elevation and extension of all our powers throughout eternal ages--are these not mighty incentives and encouragements to urge us to give the heart's loving service to our Creator and Redeemer? {SC 21.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

What I got from that quote in the post that began this topic is that conversion is not a one time experience, but must be repeated daily, but must be a daily experience.

That to me means that we must be converted daily to Christ and the truth that sets use free from the condemnation of sin that results ultimately in the 2nd death.

With the above in mind:

1 - How then are we converted daily?

2 - How do we go about being converted daily?

3 - Does this also mean that we must be born again daily?

1 - How then are we converted daily?

I believe it means maintaining our converted condition.

2 - How do we go about being converted daily?

By continuing to abide in Jesus.

3 - Does this also mean that we must be born again daily?

Conversion and rebirth are synonymous terms. There is a magical moment when we initially experience the miracle of rebirth. We cannot repeat it, but we can and must maintain it. Of course, if we backslide for several years, then it would be appropriate to get rebaptized, which essentially reestablishes our original rebirth.

Contrary to popular belief, being converted daily, or dying daily, has nothing to do with discovering and crucifying new or previously unknown character defects. Nor is it a gradual process of slowly outgrowing or overcoming our moral imperfections.

Being converted daily is the same thing as the process sanctification, which is becoming more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit, becoming more and more mature like Jesus, advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting less and less until we cease sinning altogether.

Daryl (formerly known as "Daniel")What I got from that quote in the post that began this topic is that conversion is not a one time experience, but must be repeated daily, but must be a daily experience.

I agree.

Daryl:That to me means that we must be converted daily to Christ and the truth that sets use free from the condemnation of sin that results ultimately in the 2nd death.

With the above in mind:

1 - How then are we converted daily?

The same was as the first time; by beholding the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

2 - How do we go about being converted daily?

That's the same question as 1, isn't it?

3 - Does this also mean that we must be born again daily?

Yes, if we understand "born again" to mean the same thing as being converted (which I think is correct).

"Conversion" involves seeing things in a different way. It is not specific to Christianity, or even to religion. When we perceive the love of God streaming from the cross, that vision changes us, if we don't resist it. Here the process is eloquently described:

quote:

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The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. (DA 176)

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A person may or may not have a marked experience in being converted. Many are raised by godly parents and cannot point to a specific time they were converted. But if one is converted, one's perspective will be like Paul's, who was determined to live for Him who died for us. It was the vision of the cross that changed him.

It is our realization of our sinfulness and Christ's loveliness which leads us to repentance/conversion. I believe this process deepens the more we learn truth.

Contrary to popular belief, being converted daily, or dying daily, has nothing to do with discovering and crucifying new or previously unknown character defects. Nor is it a gradual process of slowly outgrowing or overcoming our moral imperfections.

Both of these points are only applicable if one has a very strict definition of the terms involved; specifically "character defects" and "moral imperfections". You consider these terms to apply only to known sin. This is what is contrary to popular belief. Most people understand that moral imperfections are what they are, regardless of whether or not the given sin is known. For example, if a person ignorantly breaks the Sabbath or is polygamous, these are still moral imperfections or character defects, as these term in commonly used. So given the common usage of the words, one does discover new character defects and gradually overcome moral imperfections. As one encovers new truth, if one is led by the Spirit, one adjusts accordingly.

So if you wish to make these statements, I believe it would be good if you clarified what you mean by "character defects" and "moral imperfections", and would be helpful if you recognized that your usage of these terms is not standard.

There's nothing wrong with having non-standards usages for words and phrases, if you are convinced the standard usage is incorrect, but if you are deviating from the norm, it is helpful to point this out, so you don't talk past your reader.

Being converted daily is the same thing as the process sanctification, which is becoming more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit, becoming more and more mature like Jesus, advancing from one stage of perfection to another.

It's not simply becoming more and more mature like Jesus became more and more mature, but it's becoming more and more like Him.

It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting less and less until we cease sinning altogether.

Sanctification actually involves repenting more and more, not less and less.