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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47447
10/18/05 02:51 PM
10/18/05 02:51 PM
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SDA
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quote:
Also breaking the Sabbath is an obvious example of accidentally violating the law of God. Polygamy would be another. Any sin of ignorance would suffice as an example.
No one can accidentally to do something wrong when they have no idea what they’re doing is wrong. Especially if they sincerely believe it is right. You believe you have thoroughly proved a believer who is walking “in the Spirit” can unwittingly “fulfill” one or more of the dreadful sins Paul named in Galatians 5 and still “inherit the kingdom of God”.
And you believe all of this despite the fact Paul concludes exactly the opposite – “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh … Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
quote:
You don't think someone could be ignorant of selfish ambtions they hold?
Not if they are abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, partaking of the divine nature, and are endowed with spiritual eye salve and discernment. John says that such a disciple of Jesus will not and cannot sin while thus connected. I believe he agrees with Paul’s insights n Galatians 5.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47448
10/18/05 06:47 PM
10/18/05 06:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, you have this annoying habit of misquoting people, especially me. What you do is say one thing, and then when I disagree with it you accuse me of disagreeing with some other thing. I do wish you wouldn't do that. What you said that I disagreed with was that no one could do something on Paul's list without knowing it. That is not the same thing as saying that one who is walking "in the Spirit" can unwittingly "fulfill" one or more of the dreadful sins Paul names in Galatians 5. You are doing a bait and switch here, which is expected of used car salesmen, but not amongst Christians discussing theology. If you are unable to correctly state what I have stated, please just quote me directly. I don't know how many times you have stated I said something, and I ask "where" and you just ignore my question, as if you had never misquoted me. quote:
No one can accidentally to do something wrong when they have no idea what they’re doing is wrong. Especially if they sincerely believe it is right.
No matter how sincerely you believe something is right, that doesn't make it right. To accidentally do something wrong means to do something wrong without intending to. If you don't know the thing is wrong, you are fated to continue doing it wrong, unless you first learn it is wrong. There's absolultely no necessity to knowing something is wrong to be able to accidently do it wrong.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47449
10/19/05 02:29 PM
10/19/05 02:29 PM
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quote:
You believe you have thoroughly proved a believer who is walking “in the Spirit” can unwittingly “fulfill” one or more of the dreadful sins Paul named in Galatians 5 and still “inherit the kingdom of God”.
Do you agree with this assessment?
quote:
There's absolultely no necessity to knowing something is wrong to be able to accidently do it wrong.
I agree we can sincerely and ignorantly do something wrong, like observe the Sunday instead of the Sabbath day or eat pork, but I disagree we can do it accidentally. No one can accidentally knowingly observe the Sunday or eat pork if they believe there’s nothing wrong with it.
How do you define the difference between ignorantly knowingly and accidentally knowingly?
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47450
10/19/05 11:49 PM
10/19/05 11:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
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You believe you have thoroughly proved a believer who is walking “in the Spirit” can unwittingly “fulfill” one or more of the dreadful sins Paul named in Galatians 5 and still “inherit the kingdom of God”. Do you agree with this assessment? That's not how I would put it. I believe I proved that one could unwittingly do the things on Paul's list, at least the ones I mentioned. That's what my examples proved. One can unwittingly have selfish ambition, for example.
I did not say this would "fulfill one or more of the dreadful sins" which sounds to me like something quite different than what I was disagreeing with. I disagreed with your statement that one could not do any of the things on Paul's list in ignorance.There's absolultely no necessity to knowing something is wrong to be able to accidently do it wrong.I agree we can sincerely and ignorantly do something wrong, like observe the Sunday instead of the Sabbath day or eat pork, but I disagree we can do it accidentally. No one can accidentally knowingly observe the Sunday or eat pork if they believe there’s nothing wrong with it. How do you define the difference between ignorantly knowingly and accidentally knowingly? Accidently means "by chance: without advance planning." If a person breaks the Sabbath without knowing that the Sabbath should be observed, they are breaking it without advance planning; that is, accidently.
I've got no idea what you have in mind by the phrase "accidently knowlingly". It sounds like an oxymoron to me. "Accidently" means without advance planning, by chance. "Knowingly" implies advance planning. "Ignorantly knowingly" also sounds like an oxymoron to me. I did a search of this phrase on Google, and only came up with one hit, which is the following:
quote:
The afar mystifying whole is ignorantly knowingly makeup. The whole sells some
acquisitiveness just about a salute from an absentee but The compliments...
This didn't help. The fact that it is only found once by Google makes me think it's not a phrase to be found in standard English.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47451
10/20/05 02:27 PM
10/20/05 02:27 PM
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SDA
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quote:
I believe I proved that one could unwittingly do the things on Paul's list, at least the ones I mentioned. That's what my examples proved. One can unwittingly have selfish ambition, for example.
But I’m asking if you agree with Paul. Here’s what he wrote about his list of dreadful sins - “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh … Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these … Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
In light of what Paul wrote, do you agree if someone is walking in the Spirit that they will not ignorantly possess or develop one of the sinful traits of character he named? If not, why not?
quote:
If a person breaks the Sabbath without knowing that the Sabbath should be observed, they are breaking it without advance planning; that is, accidently.
When someone is involved in an accident they are painfully, and immediately, aware of the results. Usually they can retrace, from cause to effect, the unfortunate series of events that led the accident. In other words, they are not, after the fact, ignorant as to why the accident occurred. However, in the case of breaking the Sabbath or eating pork a Christian knows before, during, and after the fact, if it is wrong or not. As such, is it not an accident.
I agree with you. The expression “accidentally knowingly” is an impossibility in the case of Sabbath breaking or eating pork. It can only be an accident if you know better. For example, discovering you accidentally ate beans with pork in it. Or, realizing it is the Sabbath while you’re standing in the check out line at the store. In both cases it is considered an accident or unintentional because it was unplanned, and you realized your mistake soon thereafter. In some cases you never do find out that you accidentally did something you know is wrong. Like when you run someone off the road without ever learning about it.
And the expression “ignorantly knowingly” is another impossibility. No one can deliberately, knowingly do something wrong and it be classified as an accident or a sin of ignorance. If they know it is wrong, and they choose to do it anyhow, they are guilty of premeditated sin – not a sin of ignorance. Being converted daily, and choosing to stay converted throughout the day implies not committing sin intentionally.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47452
10/21/05 03:19 AM
10/21/05 03:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I believe I proved that one could unwittingly do the things on Paul's list, at least the ones I mentioned. That's what my examples proved. One can unwittingly have selfish ambition, for example.
But I’m asking if you agree with Paul.
Yes, I agree with Paul. I've been disagreeing with you.
Here’s what he wrote about his list of dreadful sins - “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh … Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these … Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
In light of what Paul wrote, do you agree if someone is walking in the Spirit that they will not ignorantly possess or develop one of the sinful traits of character he named? If not, why not?
I'm not comfortable using your language, for one reason because you use phrases which you refer to conditions you believe to be impossible. So your questions become tantamount to asking if I believe that one can have square circles. The way you define "sinful trait of character" precludes the possibility of ignorantly possessing or developing such a thing, just like it would be impossible to develop or possess a square circle. So if you will rephrase your question so we're not dealing with square circles, I'll answer.
If a person breaks the Sabbath without knowing that the Sabbath should be observed, they are breaking it without advance planning; that is, accidently.
When someone is involved in an accident they are painfully, and immediately, aware of the results.
This is certainly not necessarily true. You're using the word here, now as a noun rather than as an adverb, to be synonomous with something like a car accident. But you could accidentally forget to lower the thermostat in your hourse when you leave in the morning, with the only adverse effect being expending some extra engergy, a result which is not painful, or immediate, and one of which you might never be aware.
Usually they can retrace, from cause to effect, the unfortunate series of events that led the accident. In other words, they are not, after the fact, ignorant as to why the accident occurred. However, in the case of breaking the Sabbath or eating pork a Christian knows before, during, and after the fact, if it is wrong or not. As such, is it not an accident.
The word we were discussing was "accidentally", not "accident". "Accidentally" means "without advance planning." It is not necessary to be aware of whether something is right or wrong to do that thing accidentally. These are orthogonal concepts.
I agree with you. The expression “accidentally knowingly” is an impossibility in the case of Sabbath breaking or eating pork.
Or in any case whatsover. It's a meaningless phrase.
It can only be an accident if you know better. For example, discovering you accidentally ate beans with pork in it. Or, realizing it is the Sabbath while you’re standing in the check out line at the store. In both cases it is considered an accident or unintentional because it was unplanned, and you realized your mistake soon thereafter. In some cases you never do find out that you accidentally did something you know is wrong. Like when you run someone off the road without ever learning about it.
And the expression “ignorantly knowingly” is another impossibility. No one can deliberately, knowingly do something wrong and it be classified as an accident or a sin of ignorance. If they know it is wrong, and they choose to do it anyhow, they are guilty of premeditated sin – not a sin of ignorance. Being converted daily, and choosing to stay converted throughout the day implies not committing sin intentionally.
You can accidentally run off a road without knowing that it is wrong to do so. Whether one knows it is wrong to run off the road or not has no bearing on the question. You're misusing the word "accidentally" which implies a lack of advance planning, not a moral accuity.
But we're getting off the subject, it seems to me. I think you're main point is that one cannot deliberately sin without breaking your connection with Christ. That's not language I'm most comfortable with because I find "connection" to be a bit vague, but I agree with the idea. I would say one cannot deliberately sinning without "unbelieving" (that would be my first choice, if "unbelieve" were a verb) or "doubting" or "distrusting" God, or perhaps the best way of saying it would be choosing not to exercise faith, or choosing not to believe. Anyway, it's the faith aspect that's important to bring into the equation, because whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47453
10/21/05 09:41 AM
10/21/05 09:41 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Anyway, it's the faith aspect that's important to bring into the equation, because whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Yes, that is what it is about. The faith aspect deals with who you trust (to have say in your life). That should be decided with a permanent decision at conversion, and lived daily. Now this appears to be rather illusive for many (perhaps because of lack of true gospel).
Here is a firecracker way of saying it: Conversion has nothing to do with stopping to sin, but has all to do with living a holy life.
I see here a continual dredging for possibilities of sin and the effort of classifying sin, instead of having our conversation in heaven.
This problem has been always in pharisaical circles and is the one that used the law to find fault with Christ and his disciples. It is a wrong spirit. Christ answered this, by saying: Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
So, what does God consider conversion to be?
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47454
10/21/05 05:58 PM
10/21/05 05:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the question of what God considers conversion to be, three incidents come to mind. First of all, David, who in Ps. 51 said, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." and "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Actually the whole psalm provides an answer to the question as to what God considers conversion to be. Secondly, the publican, who would not so lift up his eyes to heave, but smote his breast crying out, "God be merciful to me a sinner". Jesus said he went away justified. Thirdly, the prodigal son, who remember that even being a servant in his household was better than how he was living outside it. We see in God's character that God treats the sinner as if he had never sinned. The repentant sinner recognizes this, and is moved by God's compassion. Here's how Paul puts it: quote:
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Cor.5:14)
A simple answer to the question of what God considers conversion to be is to see things as He sees them.
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47455
10/22/05 01:55 AM
10/22/05 01:55 AM
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SDA
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quote:
So if you will rephrase your question so we're not dealing with square circles, I'll answer.
Here’s what Paul wrote about his list of dreadful sins - “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh … Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these … Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
In light of what Paul wrote, do you agree if someone is walking in the Spirit that they will not ignorantly or innocently commit any of the sins he named? If not, why not?
quote:
I said: In some cases you never do find out that you accidentally did something you know is wrong. Like when you run someone off the road without ever learning about it.
He said: You can accidentally run off a road without knowing that it is wrong to do so. Whether one knows it is wrong to run off the road or not has no bearing on the question. You're misusing the word "accidentally" which implies a lack of advance planning, not a moral accuity.
quote:
That's not language I'm most comfortable with because I find "connection" to be a bit vague, but I agree with the idea.
Sister Whites taught that both faith and a vital connection are essential to our salvation. “Sinful man can find hope and righteousness only in God, and no human being is righteous any longer than he has faith in God and maintains a vital connection with Him.” (TM 366) In fact, she repeatedly used the expression “connected” to Christ or God. Here are just a few of the many places she does it.
1SM 334
The faith which avails to bring us in vital contact with Christ expresses on our part supreme preference, perfect reliance, entire consecration. This faith works by love and purifies the soul. It works in the life of the follower of Christ true obedience to God's commandments; for love to God and love to man will be the result of vital connection with Christ. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom. 8:9). {1SM 334.1}
SD 191
All blessings are bestowed upon those who have a vital connection with Jesus Christ. Jesus calls them to Himself not simply to refresh us with His grace and presence for a few hours, and then to send us forth from His light to walk apart from Him in sadness and gloom. No, no. He tells us that we must abide with Him and He with us. {SD 191.4}
NL 29
Christ and the believer become one, and His beauty of character is revealed in those who are vitally connected with the Source of power and love. Christ is the great depositary of justifying righteousness and sanctifying grace. {NL 29.1}
4T 400
Ministers of Christ, you may be connected with God if you will watch and pray. Let your words be seasoned with salt, and let Christian courtesy and true elevation pervade your demeanor. If the peace of God is ruling within, its power will not only strengthen, but soften your hearts, and you will be living representatives of Christ. {4T 400.2}
TDG 95
If you are closely connected with Jesus Christ, the Source of light and wisdom, you may become strong men and women in Christ. {TDG 95.1}
AA 262
Often in his ministry he would meet with little companies of men and women who loved Jesus, and bow with them in prayer, asking God to teach them how to maintain a living connection with Him. {AA 262.2}
FE 232
The only safety for our youth in this age of sin and crime is to have a living connection with God. {FE 232.2}
OHC 146
Many are endowed with superior talents and do not use them, because they have no living connection with God. {OHC 146.3}
SW 57
Those who have a living connection with God know that divinity works through humanity. Every soul that cooperates with God will do justly, love, mercy, and walk humbly with God. {SW 57.1}
5T 141
Unless they are rooted and grounded in the truth of the Bible, and have a living connection with God, many will be infatuated and deceived. {5T 141.2}
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Re: Is Genuine Conversion A Daily Experience?
#47456
10/22/05 04:30 AM
10/22/05 04:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the question of a born-again believer ignorantly doing something on Paul's list, I think I've answered this 10 or 12 times by now. What's the point in my repeating the same thing over and over again? I've already presented much evidence on this. Why ask me to keep providing more? I have some examples on the other thread. If you wish to continue discussing this, cite some evidence I've already provided, and we may discuss that. Regarding connection and faith, it appears clear to me from your quotes that it is faith which results in the connection. For example, the second quote you cited states, "The faith which avails to bring us in vital contact with Christ". Your logic that the "and" in the first quotes implies that faith and a connection are two different things is fallacious. Sister White often uses this "and" as a synonomous description. For example, from the GC 541 quote of the other thread I cited: quote:
For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy
The "and" here is functioning to clarify, not to present to different ideas. Sister White's writings are full of this device. Indeed, on almost every page of her writings you can find an example like this, often many.
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