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Re: God the Son
#47645
01/02/06 03:47 AM
01/02/06 03:47 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, there is nothing faulty about understanding difficult insights using plainly understood ones to guide us. For example, because the Bible is so clear about soul sleep we can, with all integrity, interpret the few difficult passages in light of the plain ones. Similarly, since the Bible and the SOP are so clear concerning the eternal pre-existence of Jesus it is wise and prudent to interpret difficult passages in light of established truth. In other words, we know that whatever an obscure text is saying it cannot contradict what we already know to be true. Somehow it harmonizes with the truth.
Tom, it looks as though we disagree on the nature of eternity and eternal Beings. I believe Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8) before He died on the cross in 27 AD. In the same way, I believe He was the Son of Man, the Son of Mary, and the Son of God before His incarnation in 4 BC.
Jesus, as a member of the Godhead, "inhabits eternity" (Isa 57:15). He simultaneously inhabits eternity past, present, and future. His life and death is an ongoing reality, and ever will be. The members of the Godhead are not bound by time and space as we perceive it, therefore, They can occupy the past and the future and, at the same time, dwell with us in our present temporal time frame. Such a thing is, of course, beyond our comprehension.
Snowman, I am glad you recognize the logic in the reasoning I posted above. Jesus is truly our eternal brother and Saviour.
Van, well said. Thank you.
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Re: God the Son
#47646
01/01/06 04:20 PM
01/01/06 04:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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I don't think I can improve on Tom's comments, MM, so I'll just agree with them ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) .If your reasoning is official church reasoning, as has been suggested, then the church - if confirming this - must account to us for its total lack of logic ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif) ....You're answering for yourself, here. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) Your concept of eternity is based on metaphysics or whatever science it is that speculates on what eternity is and involves. The Bible is to be preserved from human reasoning, while satisfying human understanding all by itself. ![[Tasty]](graemlins/tasty.gif) [ January 01, 2006, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Colin ]
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Re: God the Son
#47647
01/02/06 12:22 AM
01/02/06 12:22 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Colin, just out of curiosity - how do you explain the part of Revelation 13:8 I have made bold?
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
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Re: God the Son
#47648
01/02/06 12:36 AM
01/02/06 12:36 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Just the bolded bit?? The Lamb of God wasn't slain just before or during Adam's life time, but the effects of its future sacrifice were operative by the promise itself of the future Lamb of God. Belief in the coming Messiah started with the received promise from God of his solution to sin, but the sacrifice of the Lamb applied to the whole, historical sin problem by faith, not by occurring at the beginning of the sin problem on earth. Does that satisfy your curiosity?
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Re: God the Son
#47649
01/02/06 01:04 AM
01/02/06 01:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
MM your reasoning is NOT contradictory to the beliefs of the SDA church (as far as my small brain understands) BUT Tom seams to be in contradiction to the word and the SDA teachings, so Tom are you saying that the SDA church is in error with its' understanding of the "Godhead"? Since we Baptize into Christ and the SDA Church in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost!
I was taking issue with MM's reasoning, not so much with his position. I have my doubts about that what is being claimed to be the SDA official position really is. Surely what the Spirit of Prophecy states must carry more weight than interpretations of it.
Let's take a look at the official position:
quote:
4. The Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
I agree with every word of this.
quote:
5. The Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)
I agree with every word of this too. So I would have to say that no, I'm not in disagreement with our official position.
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Re: God the Son
#47650
01/02/06 01:17 AM
01/02/06 01:17 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, there is nothing faulty about understanding difficult insights using plainly understood ones to guide us. For example, because the Bible is so clear about soul sleep we can, with all integrity, interpret the few difficult passages in light of the plain ones. Similarly, since the Bible and the SOP are so clear concerning the eternal pre-existence of Jesus it is wise and prudent to interpret difficult passages in light of established truth. In other words, we know that whatever an obscure text is saying it cannot contradict what we already know to be true. Somehow it harmonizes with the truth.
I agree with this. If you wanted to present a logical argument to someone who disagrees with this, you would have to prove that the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy actually is clear concerning the pre-existence of Jesus. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, just in the manner with which you are (or more accurately arnen't) making a case.
quote:
Tom, it looks as though we disagree on the nature of eternity and eternal Beings. I believe Jesus was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8) before He died on the cross in 27 AD. In the same way, I believe He was the Son of Man, the Son of Mary, and the Son of God before His incarnation.
There's no Biblical grounds, or Spirit of Prophecy grounds, to believe Jesus was the Son of Man, or the Son of Mary, before His incarnation. This is just a groundless supposition on your part. Jesus became the son of Mary in 4 B.C. when He was born.
quote:
Jesus, as a member of the Godhead, "inhabits eternity" (Isa 57:15). He simultaneously inhabits eternity past, present, and future. His life and death is an ongoing reality, and ever will be. The members of the Godhead are not bound by time and space as we perceive it, therefore, They can occupy the past and the future and, at the same time, dwell with us in our present temporal time frame. Such a thing is, of course, beyond our comprehension.
This is just Greek philosophy. This is not only contrary to reason, but is contrary to how God has presented Himself to us in Scripture. What you're presenting is the Catholic idea, where Jesus is even now hanging on the cross. We don't believe that. For us, the cross is empty and the tomb is bare. Jesus is risen, and is now ministering in the Most Holy Place. While God is not bound by time, He does exist in time, and He communicates to us in time.
For example, consider the following statement from the Desire of Ages:
quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. (DA 49)
If things were as you are presenting them, it would make no sense to say that Jesus was sent at the risk of failure.
quote:
Snowman, I am glad you recognize the logic in the reasoning I posted above. Jesus is truly our eternal brother and Saviour.
There was no logic in what you posted. Snowman didn't recognize the logic, but agreed with your position (which I do too, for the most part).
My objections were specific in nature, having to do with the proper construction of an argument, which is founded on premises and then developed to show a conclusion. You didn't do this, or even attempt to. If you disagree with what I'm saying here, go to one of the specific objections I made and refute the objection.
Again, I was very specific in what I said, so it shouldn't be difficult for you to do that if I'm in error. If I'm in error, I'd like you to do that, because I would be happy to retract any mistakes.
Happy New Year,
Tom
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Re: God the Son
#47651
01/02/06 01:25 AM
01/02/06 01:25 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Colin, if, as you affirm, Jesus is not the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, why, then, did Jesus say so? Upon what authority do we disregard what it plainly says in the Bible and make it mean something different? Why can't we take Jesus at His word?
There are people on MSDAOL who do not believe God was able to predict the outcome of Jesus' incarnation, that is, God did not know in advance that Jesus would succeed on the cross. I happen to disagree with this insight, but for the sake of discussion - Could God offer salvation to OT believers before Jesus succeeded on the cross?
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Re: God the Son
#47652
01/02/06 01:27 AM
01/02/06 01:27 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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My two cents on the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. quote:
God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. (Ed 113)
Should Adam and Eve sin, the redemy was ready. The plan was set from the foundation of the world, hence Christ was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The emphasizes God's character, and the fact the the plan was not an afterthought. However, it's very important to understand that it was not necessary for Adam and Eve to sin. THAT was NOT God's plan. God never intended that any of creatures should know the misery which sin brings.
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Re: God the Son
#47653
01/02/06 01:29 AM
01/02/06 01:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Boy I hope my "Happy New Year" didn't come across as sarcastic. I didn't intend it that way (and apologize to MM if it came across that way).
Happy New Year to everybody!
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Re: God the Son
#47654
01/02/06 01:35 AM
01/02/06 01:35 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
There are people on MSDAOL who do not believe God was able to predict the outcome of Jesus' incarnation.
Surely you must have me in mind here. This isn't what I believe. It's very frustrating to me that we have dialogued hundreds if not thousands of posts on this and you still get it wrong. I don't know if you're being obtuse or beliggernt. I've never said anything remotely like what you're writing here. I apologize if you have someone other than me in mind here, but given our lengthly conversations, I can't imagine you have someone else in mind.
It's not like I haven't said what I believe on this subject. I've probably explained it to you a hundred times, and that's not an exerageration. Is it to much for me to ask that you accurately represent my opinions?
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