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Re: God the Son
#47655
01/02/06 01:41 AM
01/02/06 01:41 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, we have already agreed to disagree on the nature of eternity and eternal Beings. I believe "inhabits eternity" means each member of the Godhead exists in a time and space continuum that is wholly unknown to us. I also believe Jesus is the Son of Man, the Son of God in the same sense He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The creation of FMAs (free moral agents) was based on Jesus' eternal sacrifice on the cross. In other words, God would not have even considered creating FMAs if the plan of salvation wasn't already a simultaneous eternal reality - not just a potential.
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Re: God the Son
#47656
01/02/06 01:46 AM
01/02/06 01:46 AM
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Tom, I think I understand your position clearly. You made it clear that God could not know in advance that Jesus would definitely succeed on the cross. You believe God was merely aware of the myriad of possible outcomes, but that He didn't know exactly how it would play out beforehand.
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Re: God the Son
#47657
01/02/06 01:56 AM
01/02/06 01:56 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Colin, if, as you affirm, Jesus is not the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, why, then, did Jesus say so? Upon what authority do we disregard what it plainly says in the Bible and make it mean something different? Why can't we take Jesus at His word?
There are people on MSDAOL who do not believe God was able to predict the outcome of Jesus' incarnation, that is, God did not know in advance that Jesus would succeed on the cross. I happen to disagree with this insight, but for the sake of discussion - Could God offer salvation to OT believers before Jesus succeeded on the cross?
On your first paragraph, you have misrepresented my position completely ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif) : reread my reply to your original question, for I affirmed that Jesus is lamb of God who was slain. To understand the context of his slaying, requires little more than common sense, since it took place in earth's time, while promised ever since the Fall, and God is tied down to earth's time while the sin problem is dealt with. Allowing the cross to be an eternal reality above time before it happens in time, is presumption by God about his own future, which is unsound theology.
I've quickly edited this, having seen your interim post to Tom about this; you clearly disagree with my position, though.
Tom, how it is supposed to be you MM is referring to I don't know ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) , but the only uncertainty of foreknowledge about Jesus' redemptive actions was his own lack of divine foreknowledge during his life time, having emptied himself of that prerogative to become human: the promise was maintained by the Spirit through the prophets from Adam to Malachi, but, while the Father foresaw the success during Jesus' life, Jesus himself could not.
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Re: God the Son
#47658
01/02/06 02:24 AM
01/02/06 02:24 AM
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quote:
The Lamb of God wasn't slain just before or during Adam's life time, but the effects of its future sacrifice were operative by the promise itself of the future Lamb of God.
Colin, I assumed from these words that you do not believe Jesus' death on the cross happened before AD 31. Your response to my post seems to confirm this suspicion. And, your opinion of my belief indicates you disagree with the idea that Jesus “inhabits eternity” in a way not familiar to us.
I agree with you that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was efficacious when Adam sinned. However, I also happen to believe that it was efficacious before FMAs were even created. The plan of salvation was born before God created FMAs. The promise existed from eternity, as such, it is “operative” from eternity.
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
quote:
Allowing the cross to be an eternal reality above time before it happens in time, is presumption by God about his own future, which is unsound theology.
This insight seems to contradict what you wrote to Tom regarding Gods foreknowledge.
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Re: God the Son
#47659
01/02/06 04:31 AM
01/02/06 04:31 AM
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New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6
MF, OR
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Since the discussion seems to be evolving some, I would like to share the following quotation from Signs of the Times (Ellen White), March 25, 1897:
“God had a knowledge of the events of the future, even before the creation of the world. He did not make His purposes to fit circumstances, but He allowed matters to develop and work out. He did not work to bring out a certain condition of things, but He knew that such a condition would exist. The plan that should be carried out upon the defection of any of the high intelligences of heaven—this is the secret, the mystery which has been hid from ages. And an offering was prepared in the eternal purposes to do the very work which God has done for fallen humanity.”
The part that intrigues me is the last two sentences. God's work for humanity, centering on the incarnation, birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ was the eternal plan should any of the high intelligences of heaven (not earth) defect. What higher intelligence in heaven was there than Lucifer?
The plan for Christ to become the begotten Son of God seems to have always been present in the eternity of ages past.
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Re: God the Son
#47660
01/02/06 02:39 PM
01/02/06 02:39 PM
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SDA
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Since the plan of salvation is eternal, so is Jesus. Thus, there was never a time when Jesus did not exist. He is eternal in the same sense the Father is eternal. Not eternal in the Father before He was "begotten", but eternal as an independent person in the same sense the Father is an independent person. Both have existed from eternity, working side-by-side as co-equal members of the heavenly trio.
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Re: God the Son
#47661
01/02/06 07:58 PM
01/02/06 07:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, I think I understand your position clearly. You made it clear that God could not know in advance that Jesus would definitely succeed on the cross. You believe God was merely aware of the myriad of possible outcomes, but that He didn't know exactly how it would play out beforehand.
This is closer than what you wrote before, but is still inaccurate as it gives the impression that I somehow view God's ability differently than you do, which I don't. If anything, I believe God is more intelligent than you do (because my view requires such). I do no limit God's ability in any way.
The Desire of Ages states:
quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. (DA 49)
You're view is out of harmony with this statement, because according to it God knew 100% that Christ would be successful. Hence there was no risk in sending Christ, which contradicts the Spirit of Prophecy here, as well as in other places where she asserts the same thing.
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Re: God the Son
#47662
01/02/06 08:00 PM
01/02/06 08:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Since the plan of salvation is eternal, so is Jesus.
This is totally backwards.
God is eternal. It is because God is eternal that the plan of salvation is eternal, not the other way around.
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Re: God the Son
#47663
01/02/06 08:12 PM
01/02/06 08:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The plan that should be carried out upon the defection of any of the high intelligences of heaven—this is the secret, the mystery which has been hid from ages. And an offering was prepared in the eternal purposes to do the very work which God has done for fallen humanity.”
Note she says, "The plan that should be carried out upon the defection of any of the high intelligences of heaven—". This indicates the plan was conditional. The plan would be carried out if it was necessary; i.e. if the high intelligences in heaven should defect. But it was not necessary for this to happen. They could have just as easily (more easily, in fact) not defected.
Consider again this quote from Education:
quote:
God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but whenever there is sin, there is the Saviour. It is Christ's work "to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, . . . to set at liberty them that are bruised." Luke 4:18.
The analogy is that before the need arises, the remedy is ready. Before we are cut, the ability to heal the cut is present within us. Similarly before the entrance of sin into the world, the ability to heal its results were present within God. Is it necessary for us to cut ourselves in order for us to have the ability to be healed? No. Similarly the fall did not introduce any new elements to God or to His character that weren't always there. He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
However, the fact that the remedy was always present, and a plan was in place should it be necessary, does not indicate that need for the plan was certain, any more than the fact that our bodies are able to heal cuts necessitate that we but cut.
The plan was conditional. Had sin not entered into the world, the plan would not need to have been executed. But God would have been just as gracious, kind, loving, forgiving, merciful and compassionate as we know Him to be now that this hideous thing called sin has happened.
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Re: God the Son
#47664
01/03/06 12:20 AM
01/03/06 12:20 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.
Tom, in light of these inspired insights it is difficult for me to accept your view of God's foreknowledge. If God's knowledge of the future is as imperfect as your view implies, why, then, did Sister White say - "From the beginning ... He foresaw its existence"?
In the context of this thread, however, the eternal nature of the plan of salvation leads me to believe Jesus is eternal, too.
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