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Re: God the Son
#47675
01/04/06 07:44 PM
01/04/06 07:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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God knows with absolute certainty the future as it actually is. The future has not yet been determined. It cannot be seen in a determined state by God any more than a square can be seen as a circle by God. God sees things as they are, not as Greek philosophy dictates. In my last long post I explained the falacy of the point of view you are suggesting by imagining God's reactions as the time for man's sin grew near. I'll repeat the absurdity here: quote:
Think of the day before man sinned. You would have God thinking the following: "In exactly 24 hours, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 12 hours before man sinned. God would be thinking ""In exactly 12 hours, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 1 hour before man sinned. God would be thinking ""In exactly 1 hour, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 1 minute before man sinned. God would be thinking "In exactly 1 minute, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of the time when man was sinning. God would be thinking, "Now my Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of the third pleading of Christ. God would be thinking, "OK, He has pled twice. This is the important one. I'll give in on this one."
How do you get around this absurdity? If man's sin was inevitable, and known with certainty by God to occur at a given point He knew was coming, how do you avoid the absurdity I've outlined above? What sense does the description given by Ellen White in EW 125-127 make?
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Re: God the Son
#47676
01/05/06 01:03 AM
01/05/06 01:03 AM
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Tom, before we switch gears and address the questions you asked at the end of your last post, I'm still not sure I understand your answer to the questions I asked in my last post. quote:
God knows with absolute certainty the future as it actually is.
When? At what point in time does God know with absolute certainty what the future actually is?
Does He know exactly what is going to happen before it happens?
Does He know precisely our choices and the exact outcome before we chose and act?
Did He know Lucifer would rebel before he rebelled?
Did He know in advance with absolute certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before they ate it?
Did He know without a doubt that Jesus would succeed on the cross before it happened?
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Re: God the Son
#47677
01/05/06 01:47 PM
01/05/06 01:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, before we switch gears and address the questions you asked at the end of your last post, I'm still not sure I understand your answer to the questions I asked in my last post.
Let's pause a moment here. I made two lenghtly posts, with nine points, none of which you have addressed. How are we "switching gears" here? The post I made of EW 125-127 was before your questions. I've dealt with all of your posts, addressing each question and each point.
You still haven't addressed the nine points I made in those two posts. You haven't explained how God could "risk" something when the event in question is 100% certain.
Here's an anology. Say someone is sentenced to the death penalty, and I offer to "risk" myself to die in his place. Here's the risk. I'll drop a bowling ball, and if the ball flies up to the moon instead of dropping to the earth, then I'll die in the other guy's place. To your way of thinking, the "risk" Christ took is no different than the "risk" I'm taking in the analogy.
You still haven't addressed the points I made in EW 125-127, which were before this last round of questions.
I'm confused by your "switching gears" comment. This gives the impression that I'm somehow not addressing your questions and points while you are addressing mine. But that's the opposite of what's happening here. I've written detailed posts with explicit points and questions. The one post where you did make some attempt to address some of the points I answered in great detail, treating every point you made step by step. You didn't reply to the points I made in that post, in addition to not replying to the points of the previous posts.
I'm not "switching gears" here. I've just been asking that you treat my posts as I've treated yours. Which is to say, to address the points and questions I'm making.
Regardless of what you do, I'll answer the questions you asked, because that's what I always do. However, I'll wait a little bit to see if you'd like to address the points I had made previously.
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Re: God the Son
#47678
01/05/06 04:45 PM
01/05/06 04:45 PM
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Tom, before I can address your points I need to understand your point. That's why I keep asking follow up questions. I'm not rudely ignoring your points, rather, I'm simply trying to understand them.
I hear you saying two contradicting things. But I know you well enough to know that cannot possibly be the case. You are too logical for that to happen. Obviously, then, I'm misunderstanding you somehow. And, I want to get to the bottom of it.
Here's what I hear you saying:
1. God knows with absolute certainty the future as it actually is.
2. God does not know in advance our choices or the precise outcome of our choices. He is aware of all the possibilities, but He does not know in advance exactly which way it will play out.
To say that God knows the future as it actually is, and then to insist He has no way of knowing exactly how things will play out before it happens, seems contradictory to me. Clearly I'm not getting it, right?
So, once I feel like I understand your view I will then be better prepared to answer your questions regarding risk and responsibility. I hope this makes sense to you. If not, please accept my apologizes. I am not trying to test your patience. I'm simply trying to understand your point. Thank you.
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Re: God the Son
#47679
01/05/06 07:02 PM
01/05/06 07:02 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Ok, MM. Thank you for your explanation, a very fine one. quote:
To say that God knows the future as it actually is, and then to insist He has no way of knowing exactly how things will play out before it happens, seems contradictory to me. Clearly I'm not getting it, right?
If the future is determined, then yes, this would be contradictory. But if the future is dynamic, open, full of possibilities rather than being a single certain thing, then no, it's not contradictory. It's only if our ability to choose is imaginary (that is perceived, not actual) that a contradiction comes into play.
The question comes down to if I can really determine my own future, or if I only think I can. If the future is determined, or fixed (i.e. certain; only one possible outcome) then it may appear to me that I can choose between options A and B, but I really can't. It only appears to me that I can.
How God reacted in EW 125-127 makes it clear that our choices are real, and the future is dyanamic. How else can one explain God's reaction? This is not the account of One who knew that man was destined to sin in a few hours or moments, but of One who is reacting to an emergency. Everything about the account supports this.
If one looks at Scripture, one can see many, many similar accounts. God presents Himself as acting in history, and as experiencing true emotion, including surprise (Jer. 32:35). Such emotion is either the result of legitamately reacting to events and participating in history, or it is feigned and fake.
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Re: God the Son
#47680
01/05/06 07:14 PM
01/05/06 07:14 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
When? At what point in time does God know with absolute certainty what the future actually is?
Always. That is, God always knows the future as it actually is. How the future actually is changes of course.
quote:
Does He know exactly what is going to happen before it happens?
This question appears to be equivalent to asking of there's only one possible result for the future. The answer is no. The future allows for multiple possibilities. For example, we are told that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal lost. This means it was possible for Christ to either succeed or fail. This is what God knew. That is, God knew it was possible for Christ to fail. So God's knoweldge of the possibility of an event does not mean that it must happen.
quote:
Does He know precisely our choices and the exact outcome before we chose and act?
We truly have free will. As such our choices are not determined. Even if you know someone perfectly, it is still possible for them to do something unexpected. For example, God knew Christ perfectly, yet there was still risk involved in His being sent.
quote:
Did He know Lucifer would rebel before he rebelled?
God knew of the possibility, but it was not God's plan that Lucifer should sin. Lucifer alone was the author of sin and death. God would not have created Lucifer if his rebellion was a foregone conclusion. That doesn't fit with God's character. God is not willing that any should perish. God created Lucifer with the full expectation and desire that he would spend etenity joyfully with Him in heaven.
quote:
Did He know in advance with absolute certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before they ate it?
Same answer as for Lucifer. Adam and Eve were created with the desire that they would spend eternity happily with God without ever knowing the misery of sin.
quote:
Did He know without a doubt that Jesus would succeed on the cross before it happened?
This question is addressed by the following statements I quoted previously:
quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. (DA 49)
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)
Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul. (COL 196)
Is it possible for God to know something will happen and for that thing not to happen?
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Re: God the Son
#47681
01/06/06 05:29 AM
01/06/06 05:29 AM
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Okay, I think I've got it now. But I'm pretty sure I disagree. How can God be surprised at a given outcome when He is well aware of all the possible outcomes before they happen? As such, nothing could take Him by surprise. Thus, no matter what the outcome He would have to feign shock and surpise.
Here's what makes sense to me. Nothing surprises God. He knows the end from the beginning. But knowing it in advance does not lessen His joy or sorrow when things finally play out. Anticipation only serves to increase His happiness or sadness. He does not have to feign it.
Risk and responsibility? God doesn't take risks in the same way we do. So, we cannot force the concept of risk, in the context of God's omniscience, to contradict what we know to be true about His foreknowledge. And God is definitely not responsible for making anyone sin or rebel. Knowing the details of our future choices and outcomes in no way robs us of free will, and in no way makes God responsible.
I realize this makes no sense to you whatsoever, but, in my mind, it makes perfect sense.
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Re: God the Son
#47682
01/06/06 02:35 PM
01/06/06 02:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Okay, I think I've got it now. But I'm pretty sure I disagree.
I know you disagree. You have the idea that the future is like a TV re-run. We've been through this before. There are some new people in the forum, who may be reading our dialog. I'm hopeful we can have a dialog which can present the issues in a clear way.
quote:
How can God be surprised at a given outcome when He is well aware of all the possible outcomes before they happen? As such, nothing could take Him by surprise. Thus, no matter what the outcome He would have to feign shock and surpise.
Well this is the problem. God doesn't feign shock and surprise. For example, He says is Jer. 32:35, "they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into my mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
From the Spirit of Prophecy there's the scene from EW 125-127. The problem with your point of view is that God would have to be feigning the whole conference with Christ, if everything was just playing out as He knew it would. What sense is there for a conference where Jesus pleads three times, and God finally allows Him to come? This is just nonsense if there was no actual decision-making going on.
quote:
Here's what makes sense to me. Nothing surprises God. He knows the end from the beginning. But knowing it in advance does not lessen His joy or sorrow when things finally play out. Anticipation only serves to increase His happiness or sadness. He does not have to feign it.
This doesn't work. We have an in detail account of what happened in heaven when man sinned. There was a conference. Jesus had to lobby to convince the Father to go ahead with the plan. This is clear from the account. The angel asked Ellen White if she thought it wasn't a struggle for God to send His Son, and then affirmed that it was a struggle. Your point of view does not account for this struggle. I'll repost the paradox.
quote:
Risk and responsibility? God doesn't take risks in the same way we do. So, we cannot force the concept of risk, in the context of God's omniscience, to contradict what we know to be true about His foreknowledge.
There's no forcing going on. We need to allow inspiration to mold our thinking, not try to force inspiration to agree with us. "Risk" and "imperiled" are simple concepts that even a child understands. God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Christ risked all. All heaven was imperiled for our redemption. It was a struggle for God to allow His Son to come. All of these things point to the fact that Christ's coming here was fraught with danger.
quote:
And God is definitely not responsible for making anyone sin or rebel. Knowing the details of our future choices and outcomes in no way robs us of free will, and in no way makes God responsible.
No, you're not seeing the problem here. The problem is not that God's knowing what will happen causes the thing to happen. There's no causaility here. I've explained this many times before, but for some reason it's difficult to grasp (not just for you though, you have company).
The problem is not that God's knowing what will happen causes the thing to happen. This is no more the case than our knowing something to happen will make it happen. The problem is if the future is such that only one thing CAN happen. That's the issue. Is it REALLY possible for more than one thing to happen in the future? Inspiration argues that it is. In your point of view, only one future can play out, like a TV re-run. THAT'S the problem.
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Re: God the Son
#47683
01/06/06 02:37 PM
01/06/06 02:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's a repost of the paradox: quote:
According to your viewpoint, it must have been play acting. Think of the day before man sinned. You would have God thinking the following: "In exactly 24 hours, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 12 hours before man sinned. God would be thinking ""In exactly 12 hours, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 1 hour before man sinned. God would be thinking ""In exactly 1 hour, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of 1 minute before man sinned. God would be thinking "In exactly 1 minute, man will sin. My Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of the time when man was sinning. God would be thinking, "Now my Son will come and plead with me. I will have a difficult time deciding what I will do, but will acceed on the third request to His pleadings."
Think of the third pleading of Christ. God would be thinking, "OK, He has pled twice. This is the important one. I'll give in on this one."
This doesn't make any sense.
Hopefully the problem is apparent here. I'd be interested to see an attempted resolution.
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Re: God the Son
#47684
01/06/06 04:03 PM
01/06/06 04:03 PM
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SDA
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quote:
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
Tom, according to these types of quotes it is clear to me that the plan of salvation was known to God from eternity. Not, as you insist, that it was a possibility, but that it was inevitable. Again, I suspect we are not going to agree on this point.
It is not difficult for me to envision the Father wrestling with a decision to go through with the plan the moment man sinned. I realize you cannot see it through my eyes. On this point we shall have to disagree.
Just because God foresees our future choices and outcomes does not mean He has robbed us of the freedom to choose our own destiny, or that He has fixed our future beyond our ability to choose otherwise. Again, I suspect we will never agree on this point.
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