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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47701
12/23/05 09:58 AM
12/23/05 09:58 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Colin
You managed to reply to Johns list of bible references with a list of SDA pioneer reference. Honestly, which of these has precedence in authority?
Using your line of argument one can ask the followup question, was Jesus a person before taking on a human body some 2000 years ago? Is God Father a person for while He sits on a throne in heaven, He also Jeremiah 23 24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
/Thomas
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47702
12/24/05 03:06 AM
12/24/05 03:06 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Yes, looks it, doesn't it, but John's wasn't a one liner: was replying to Tom; John got in inbetween, and I don't disagree with him either. Hopefully I've answered Tom's question, tho'!
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47703
12/24/05 03:12 AM
12/24/05 03:12 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Well, after these threads there cant be any honest critic of catholics or others for building theology on church tradition rather than upon the plain scripture. Yet one difference removed..
/Thomas
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47704
12/24/05 03:16 AM
12/24/05 03:16 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote: Using your line of argument one can ask the followup question, was Jesus a person before taking on a human body some 2000 years ago? Is God Father a person for while He sits on a throne in heaven, He also Jeremiah 23 24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
Yes, to both.
But, unless you're pulling my leg, where did I say Jesus was the begotten Spirit of God, or that the Spirit of God is the same person as the Father or the Son? Isn't it obvious that the creation is sustained by the power of God's Spirit present throughtout the universe?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47705
12/24/05 03:51 AM
12/24/05 03:51 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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It is very clear, to me, that both the Bible and the SOP confirm the SDA Fundamental beliefs, quoted at the beginning of this thread, regarding the trinity and the Holy Spirit.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47706
12/23/05 04:05 PM
12/23/05 04:05 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Colin,
If I understand your position correctly, that the Spirit isnt a person at all but an it, an apersonal "artificial intelligence of God and Jesus", and that the prof of this is His/its lack of a humanly recoginseable body. All this backed up with a piece here and a piece there of pioneer quoting without any hint of context. Im in no position to pull your or anyone elses legg until I can fathom your thinking, the changing from a triune Godhead to a dual Godhead and this using 95% extrabiblical sources.
Oh well,, I guess Ill just have to continue to try an figgure this out.
/Thomas
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47707
12/24/05 03:04 AM
12/24/05 03:04 AM
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Some Spirit of Prophecy evidences that the Holy Spirit is a Person: "Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, converting, enlightening, sanctifying, would be His donation." {ST 12-01-98 para. 2}
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"In describing to His disciples the office work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because of the abundant help He had provided for His church. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church." {DA 671.2}
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"The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon the church." {RH 05-19-04 para. 3}
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"We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds." -- Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {2SAT 137.6} {Ev 616.5}
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"The Holy Spirit is a person; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God." {20MR 68.5} {Ev 616.6}
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"The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.'" -- Manuscript 20, 1906. {20MR 69.1} {Ev 617.1}
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"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." {SpTA10 37.1} (1897) {Ev 617.2}
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"The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." {SpTB07 63.2} {Ev 615.1}
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47708
12/24/05 03:26 AM
12/24/05 03:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Colin, I appreciate this discussion. It's easy for us to be dogmatic about things we don't understand. Certainly none of understand the nature of divinity, and there is mystery to the Holy Spirit, as what you quoted brings out. However, it's not just the Holy Spirit that we do not understand; we're just as clueless when it comes to the Father and the Son as well. The best we can do is to understand in our limited ways what God has revealed to us.
John brought out some of the quotes I had in mind regarding the Holy Spirit being a person. Also the quotes from Scripture bring out the He does things one ordinarily ascribes to a personal being, such as grieving, and so forth. That "He is as much a person as God is a person" also brings out that He is a person.
Here's where the rubber meets the road I think. Is the Holy Spirit someone that can think and act indepently of God the Father or Christ the Son? When the Godhead meets in conference, how many are present? Two or three? The ideas of how many are expressed? Two or three?
I believe the answer is three.
This is an aside. Regarding the use of the word "trinity", I think there is baggage there associated with the Catholic position, which is why EGW didn't use the term. The Catholic position is very different than ours, and I don't like the use of the word, as it implies we believe as they do, which we don't. Their understanding of the term is tied into their belief of an immortal soul.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47709
12/24/05 09:45 AM
12/24/05 09:45 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Dear Tom: Zechariah 6:13 says: "and the counsel of peace shall be bewteen them both". It does not say that the counsel of peace shall be between them three. In Patriarchs and Prophets, page 36 it says: "...none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will." In Great Controversy, page 493 it says: "Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, - one in nature, in character, and in purpose, - the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God". Glenn
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47710
12/24/05 12:19 PM
12/24/05 12:19 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote: Zechariah 6: 9 The word of the LORD came to me: 10 "Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, [d] Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen [e] son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the LORD. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the LORD, and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the LORD your God."
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