MM, we're actually talking past each other, since I merely decline to be tied down to trinitarian wording as my preferred expression, yet agree that

quote:

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the Holy Spirit is as much a person as God is a person, that He is the third person of the heavenly trio.

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Sister White joined her contemporaries in describing the Spirit as being the fulness of the Godhead, but only manifesting God's power and presence - not manifesting the Godhead bodily - as Jesus does.

We appear to differ on the meaning of "proceeding from God" in relation to the Spirit, since we differ on the Spirit being God's intelligent Spirit.

Tom, we can agree on this point you raise, since having a self isn't excluded from God, but Father, Son and Holy Spirit are selfless in their attitude. Conscious separate intelligence the Spirit also has, but 'independent' doesn't sound suitable for divine persons with the conotation it has in our thinking for being different: separate means the same for you? Still, their distinct personalities require a personal link to attain one nature among them; the Son begotten, and the Spirit proceeding. You raise this point - in disagreeing with it - on the trinity thread today, I think, so I'll deal with it there; you had previously been in favour of it.

Colin, I have a great deal of difficult understanding you on this subject. Sorry about that. Apparently the difficulty is mutual, since you seem to think I'm changing positions, but I'm not.

I don't see how it makes sense to say that the Spirit will not testify of itself if it did not have a self of which not to testify. That presents the thought as simply as I know how to.

I used the analogy of a robot to represent your viewpoint. Do you see that as off base?

Colin, I believe the Holy Spirit is a real person, not God's disembodied presence. That's how we disagree. I've already provided the inspired insights that I believe support my view of the Holy Spirit. I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Before this grinds to a halt, I agree with you, Tom, that all persons of the Godhead have selves which they defer to their creatures on: IOW, they're selfless. Like you said, the Son speaks of his Father's will, and the Spirit speaks what it hears from both Father & Son about that will of God.

The robot analogy may have expressed well your perception of my view, but your perception wasn't accurate - hence all your questions.

Thomas' idea of God's soul being his mind which is able to leave his body is close to my idea of God's Spirit being able to leave his body, but would be more than his soul or mind since the Bible says the Spirit searches God's mind - so would have access to his mind but not be his mind, yet able to leave his body and exert God's power in the universe to uphold creation, and come to us to dwell in us with God's presence and the mind and character of Jesus. The experience of communicating with God by prayer and Bible study through the Spirit is agreed: that's how we commune with the Spirit. We cannot know, so should we speculate, on how Father and Son hold counsel, as to whether the Spirit joins in on the discussion. There's no allusion to that in Scripture, is there? - while Father & Son are said to meet together, in both the Bible and SOP.

MM, the rest of EGW's written comments on the Spirit's nature don't support it literally walking through the Avondale campus grounds - striding and swinging its arms in time: "The Comforter...is the Spirit in the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest God's power and grace to [us] believers" Thus the Spirit pervaded Avondale campus and was watchful of everyone there - all of them believers(?), also communing spiritually with everyone in making real by grace through faith God's own presence in their lives.

The list of pioneer quotes by me on what is probably page 1 of this thread was to indicate that the published voice of our church was settled, throughout Ellen White's lifetime, on God's Spirit being as much a person as God, but not a person just like God: does God's omnipresence have a body life we do, the Father does and Jesus does? Is that record of no value in elucidating what she agreed with of others in her midst, but felt unable to articulate herself? What little she wrote on the Spirit - mostly in response to Kellogg's mistakes - was in line with what her fellow Adventists published at the same time: common belief, or not?

I hear from both of you that you understand the Spirit to be a person as you perceive a person to be: is that how we are supposed to understand the Spirit's personality?? During EGW's lifetime her/our church published consistently that we should not regard the Spirit to be a person as we understand persons, but yet to have personality separte from God and Jesus. Tom, granted, a person has individuality, and consciousness, but the Spirit is different in other respects, isn't he, bringing God's presence but not God's body to us while being personal? MM, how do you reconcile the quote I keep producing with your favourite quote?

Hopefully this can be resolved; would be a shame not to.

Sure, a person normally has a body. Also, a person normally cannot create anything out of nothing, live for eternity by default or repeatedly claim to be God without being eligeble for the insane assylum..

I thought one of the things Jesus sacraficed when becoming human was the state of existence God lives in and getting a human body, the creator making himself part of the created. If God has a body like we do, I would have to reevaluate exactly what God really did create, becourse in that case "everything that was made" could not include everything that exists outside of God.

/Thomas

Thomas, the Bible says man was made in the image and likeness of God. This implies, in my mind, that the Father is like us both spiritually and physically. That is, we share the same basic physical features - ears, eyes, nose, arms, legs, etc. I'm sure that's why the Bible uses these terms to descibe God. Jesus told Sister White in vision that the Father has a "form" like His.

2 Chronicles
6:40 Now, my God, let, I beseech thee, thine eyes be open, and [let] thine ears [be] attent unto the prayer [that is made] in this place.

Deuteronomy
5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Song of Solomon
5:10 My beloved [is] white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
5:11 His head [is as] the most fine gold, his locks [are] bushy, [and] black as a raven.
5:12 His eyes [are] as [the eyes] of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, [and] fitly set.
5:13 His cheeks [are] as a bed of spices, [as] sweet flowers: his lips [like] lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.
5:14 His hands [are as] gold rings set with the beryl: his belly [is as] bright ivory overlaid [with] sapphires.
5:15 His legs [are as] pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance [is] as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.
5:16 His mouth [is] most sweet: yea, he [is] altogether lovely. This [is] my beloved, and this [is] my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

EW 54
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}