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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47781
01/08/06 03:48 AM
01/08/06 03:48 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Colin wrote:
My position remains, with our pioneers - including Sister White - as I have read them, that God's Spirit is neither his soul nor his mind, but indeed searches his mind as his Spirit, which is a person with a personality and consciousness but not like Father or Son since it is the divine Spirit and not a second 'Son' or any other person in the normal sense of person.
Tom replied:
Ellen White said the Holy Spirit is not like the Father or Son, or any other person in the normal sense of person? Where did she write that?
She wrote that the Comforter "is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power and divine grace of God...unto believers". While the Son is the fulness of the Godhead manifested bodily, and the Father is the fulness of the Godhead bodily but invisible to mortal eyes, the Spirit manifests God's power and grace, but does not manifest the Godhead bodily.
I was equating "being" as a noun with having a body, but you're emphasising the individuality of the Spirit with "being", using the dictionary definition. That's never an automatically safe method of defining a Biblical point: Scripture must interpret itself. Still, on this point we can agree on the spirit's individuality, but why should the Spirit ever wish to 'do its own thing' apart from God, just to express itself freely? Inspiration reveals that the Spirit is independent of God's bodily confines, but primarily facilitates the harmony between God and his Son and also implementing their will throughout creation, while also keeping harmony with his intelligent creation - including ourselves. For Jesus to do his own thing apart from his Father was only a natural option while possessing our sinful flesh - which he now possesses as glorified humanity. As the divine Son doing his own thing wasn't a natural preference at all, so would never happen. quote:
The Spirit of Prophecy, speaking of the Holy Spirit, says He is a divine person, and has a personality. She speaks of three persons of the Godhead. I don't see how these statements can co-exist with the idea that He is not an individual who can assert His own will.
I reiterate that you appear to insist on God's Spirit's individuality needing freedom to act like we sinful beings would wish naturally to behave: assert one's own will. That is an irrelevancy for the Godhead, and leaves the heavenly trio in a wrong light, doesn't it?
Scripture barely reveals more than the Spirit of Jesus being separate from Jesus, but that separateness is there, and that's all we know. The larger dispute is whether the Holy Spirit exists & proceeds from the Father and Son's physical, divine persons or it exists strictly separately from them, as someone just like them, as they are said to be just like each other. That is my point of emphasis, taking the former option.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47782
01/08/06 11:21 PM
01/08/06 11:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I was equating "being" as a noun with having a body, but you're emphasising the individuality of the Spirit with "being", using the dictionary definition. That's never an automatically safe method of defining a Biblical point: Scripture must interpret itself.
Where does Scripture suggest we should use a different definition for "being" then the ordinary one? If we start re-defining ordinary words, where do we stop?
quote:
I reiterate that you appear to insist on God's Spirit's individuality needing freedom to act like we sinful beings would wish naturally to behave: assert one's own will. That is an irrelevancy for the Godhead, and leaves the heavenly trio in a wrong light, doesn't it?
I'm not saying the individuality needs freedom to act like sinful beings, but that the word "individuality" implies the ability to act independently. Otherwise there wouldn't be any individuality at all (except for the one who will was being asserted).
Having the ability to act independently is far from irrelevant. Consider the scene portrayed in EW 125-127 (quoted several times in the God the Son thread). It's clear that Jesus and the Father were acting invidually there. It was not a forgone conclusion that God would allow His Son to come on His most dangerous mission. It was a "struggle". Jesus was clearly more willing to come than the Father was willing to allow Him to come. They are different individuals.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47783
01/09/06 12:19 AM
01/09/06 12:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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In the Bible the Spirit is revealed only as doing the Father's will in applying the truth of Jesus. There's too little detail aside from that activity to construct how the Spirit relates to Father & Son with its own personlity.
The restriction on dictionary definitions is the very scope of Biblical revelation. Even 'creation' in the dictionary must be challenged or kept in check by the Biblical meaning. The dictionary answers to the Bible, as any human expression does.
We have our code of conduct with God's Spirit given us by Jesus, but the Spirit's sole activity is representing God: that's a spiritual individuality in and of divine nature, so is different to both Father & Son, but how individual aside from being God's agent the Bible doesn't reveal. That's why I listed all those pioneer quotes near the beginning of this thread: subservience to God doesn't diminish the Spirit's undoubted divinity.
You said the Spirit is a being because he is a person. Since he isn't a person just like God's a person, what sort of "being" does that leave?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47784
01/09/06 06:04 AM
01/09/06 06:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm not following your argument about definitions. What Jones and Waggoner taught was the the Scriptures use the ordinary definitions of words. Words are words, not spiritural words. They don't have special meanings that only the enlightened can understand. This is where the gnostics went wrong.
Now if we're dealing with prophetic symbols, then of course Scripture must define itself. But even here "goats" are "goats" and so forth.
Does the Scripture define "being" somewhere so that I should think the word "being" doesn't mean "being"?
Regarding "person", where does Scripture, or the Spirit of Prophecy, state that the Holy Spirit is not a person like God is a person?
Coming back to the asserting of the will question, does the Holy Spirit have an independent will which can be asserted? I'm sorry if you've already answered this, but I can't remember getting a yes or no answer to this.
I believe He does. That is, if He so chose, He could act contrary to the Father's will, or Jesus' will. The fact that He doesn't so choose to do is moot, as far as the question I'm asking is concerned.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47785
01/09/06 09:35 AM
01/09/06 09:35 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Yes, a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat (Matt 25): very important, but where in the Bible is the Spirit of God called a "being"? He isn't even called a "person"...! Personal characteristics are given him, as Christ's representative, with extra special priviledges on blasphemy, as well as being witnesses with us and being upset by us, and the like, but it's only the SOP which uses "person" for him. You're not worried about the Spirit's lack of physique, but it is this very difference with the Father and Son which brought all Ellen White's contemporaries I quoted at the beginning of this thread to say that the Spirit isn't a person like God is, while being as much a person as God is. Divine Spirit with personality - hence individuality, but no divine physique, hence not conventional pesonality or individuality?
The Spirit's individuality was never in question - just separating its "being" from meaning body, as in divine being or human being while allowing individuality, but how it is the divine Spirit is the debate around "person". It is given personal attributes since it does personal things, but his individuality is that mysterious ability to manifest God's persence for us & in us separately from Father and Son. That's a separate individuality from God, but that's all we know, isn't it?
An independent will? At least during the history of salvation, we cannot know, can we? Independent activity, absolutely, but isn't allowing the Spirit an independent will going beyond the revelation of his task to harmonise us with God and Christ? - the very harmonising task he has always had with God and his Son. Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?
[ January 09, 2006, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Colin ]
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47786
01/09/06 03:04 PM
01/09/06 03:04 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Colin:
Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?
Arent we all (including you)?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47787
01/10/06 04:01 AM
01/10/06 04:01 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
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Dear interested persons:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, said: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".
Is it essential to eternal life that I know exactly who, what, where, what substance, etc. concerning the Holy Spirit?
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47788
01/10/06 04:13 AM
01/10/06 04:13 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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If the Holy Spirit isn't a living person, in the same sense the Father is a living person, why, then, are we baptized in the name of all three great powers of the heavenly trio? Why is the Holy Spirit represented as working side by side with the Father and Son? If the Holy Spirit is a non-physical person, how can He be present when the Father and Son are present? Why would anyone refer to the work and presence of the Holy Spirit while the Father and Son are present?
EV 307
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {Ev 307.1}
Baptism is a most solemn renunciation of the world. Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have forsaken the service of Satan, and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. {Ev 307.2}
They are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus they are united with the three great powers of heaven. {Ev 307.3}
EV 615
There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47789
01/09/06 06:49 PM
01/09/06 06:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Yes, a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat (Matt 25): very important, but where in the Bible is the Spirit of God called a "being"? He isn't even called a "person"...!
I'm just commuinicating in English. "Being" is a word I used. I used it in the ordinary sense of the word. It will be a challenge to communicate if we are limited to words which are only found in Scripture (e.g. is "challenge" in Scripture?; but we know what it means, don't we? Do I need to provide a Scriptural definition for "challenge" before I can use it?)
quote:
Personal characteristics are given him, as Christ's representative, with extra special priviledges on blasphemy, as well as being witnesses with us and being upset by us, and the like, but it's only the SOP which uses "person" for him. You're not worried about the Spirit's lack of physique, but it is this very difference with the Father and Son which brought all Ellen White's contemporaries I quoted at the beginning of this thread to say that the Spirit isn't a person like God is, while being as much a person as God is. Divine Spirit with personality - hence individuality, but no divine physique, hence not conventional pesonality or individuality?
To my way of thinking, it is not the body but the mind which makes personhood or individuality possible.
quote:
The Spirit's individuality was never in question - just separating its "being" from meaning body, as in divine being or human being while allowing individuality, but how it is the divine Spirit is the debate around "person".
I don't know what this is saying.
quote:
It is given personal attributes since it does personal things, but his individuality is that mysterious ability to manifest God's persence for us & in us separately from Father and Son. That's a separate individuality from God, but that's all we know, isn't it?
To manifest God's presence as I understand it is not some mysterious unexplainable thing, but simply refers to His communicating God's will and thoughts to us (admittedly there's mystery involved in how he does this). When we respond to His wooing, and choose to do God's will, then our minds and hearts are united with His; we choose to do His will. That's how God's presence is manifest in us.
quote:
An independent will? At least during the history of salvation, we cannot know, can we?
Why not? If God reveals it to us, we can know.
quote:
Independent activity, absolutely, but isn't allowing the Spirit an independent will going beyond the revelation of his task to harmonise us with God and Christ? - the very harmonising task he has always had with God and his Son. Aren't you venturing into the realm of speculation with this point?
I don't think so. One of the attributes of being a person is having a will.
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Re: God: The Holy Spirit
#47790
01/09/06 06:53 PM
01/09/06 06:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Is it essential to eternal life that I know exactly who, what, where, what substance, etc. concerning the Holy Spirit?
Not directly, no: just fundamental to understanding who gifts us eternal life... [Big Grin] ...as well as how we come to "know...the only true God": Biblically, we know God through his Spirit, but God's Spirit must be Biblically understood so as not to cease being Biblically divine.
Is the Spirit of God actually literally God's Holy Spirit, or the metaphorical title of one of three persons who selected it for himself for the common purpose which makes them divine by uniting them? Thus our trinity doctrine isn't certain about the Spirit's divinity according to Biblical clarity.
One must establish the divine Spirit, or else one's link to God is uncertain.
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