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Re: An Enemy Caused This #47841
01/21/06 03:04 AM
01/21/06 03:04 AM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, I respect your speculative rationalizations but that is all they are.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47842
01/21/06 03:18 AM
01/21/06 03:18 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here is some of what Sister White wrote about the curse:

quote:
All nature is confused; for God forbade the earth to carry out the purpose He had originally designed for it. Let there be no peace to the wicked, saith the Lord. The curse of God is upon all creation. Every year it makes itself more decidedly felt (MS 76a, 1901). {1BC 1085.5}

The first curse was pronounced upon the posterity of Adam and upon the earth, because of disobedience. The second curse came upon the ground after Cain slew his brother Abel. The third most dreadful curse from God, came upon the earth at the Flood (4SG 121). {1BC 1085.6}

The Lord's curse is upon the earth, upon man, upon beast, upon the fish in the sea, and as transgression becomes almost universal the curse will be permitted to become as broad and as deep as the transgression (Letter 59, 1898). {1BC 1085.9}

The curse is increasing as transgression increases (Letter 22, Feb. 13, 1900). {1BC 1086.1}

Those who honored and feared to offend God, at first felt the curse but lightly; while those who turned from God and trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily, especially in stature and nobleness of form. {3SG 60.2}

The curse did not change at once the appearance of the earth. It was still rich in the bounty God had provided for it. There was gold and silver in abundance. The race of men then living were of very great stature, and possessed wonderful strength. {3SG 61.2}


Re: An Enemy Caused This #47843
01/21/06 03:30 AM
01/21/06 03:30 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Then I guess we could say that the devil cooperates with God when it is in his best interest to do so.
I'm not sure what this is in reference to, but the devil never cooperates with God really. He may appear to, but he is a liar. He does whatever he thinks will work the best to achieve his ends, which are to promote his agenda of self. His primary means is to misrepresent God's character, and a chief way he does this is by causing evil and then blaiming God for it.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47844
01/21/06 03:30 AM
01/21/06 03:30 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I do not believe the earth, when it came forth from the hand and voice of God, was equipped to survive sin. I do not believe God designed it especially to host sin, to accommodate sin. No! Instead, it makes more sense to me to believe that God modified everything or unnaturally sustains everything to survive sin long enough to allow Jesus to win the great controversy on our behalf. Otherwise, nothing would have survived the first sin long enough to slowly, gradually die or decay. Everything and everyone (Adam and Eve) would have been destroyed immediately.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47845
01/21/06 03:35 AM
01/21/06 03:35 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Death was never part of God's plan, thus, none of the animals He created were especially equipped to kill other animals or to tear their flesh or to digest flesh for food. All animals, including "carnivores", could survive on a vegetarian diet, flesh is not necessasry. This is true today, and was even more true just after the Fall of man (before the Flood). The "curse" did not immediately change the world, it took time to change, and did not really happen until after the Flood.
Well said.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47846
01/21/06 03:46 AM
01/21/06 03:46 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here is some of what Sister White wrote about death and how God sustains things:

quote:
Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God (MS 65, 1899) [published in F. D. Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics]. {1BC 1082.5}

Adam listened to the words of the tempter, and yielding to his insinuations, fell into sin. Why was not the death penalty at once enforced in his case?--Because a ransom was found. God's only begotten Son volunteered to take the sin of man upon Himself, and to make an atonement for the fallen race. {1BC 1082.6}

God forbears, for a time, the full execution of the sentence of death pronounced upon man. {1BC 1085.4}

Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God (Ibid., March 14, 1878). {1BC 1104.5}

But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. {1BC 1086.7}

The Lord has given His life to the trees and vines of His creation. His word can increase or decrease the fruit of the land. If men would open their understanding to discern the relation between nature and nature's God, faithful acknowledgments of the Creator's power would be heard. Without the life of God, nature would die. His creative works are dependent on Him. He bestows life-giving properties on all that nature produces. We are to regard the trees laden with fruit as the gift of God, just as much as though He placed the fruit in our hands (MS 114, 1899). {1BC 1081.4}

In a world full of sin death is natural, life is unnatural. God is sustaining life in a world of sin unnaturally, against nature, against law. It is the blood of Jesus that allows God to give life in a world of sin, contrary to the natural course of sin, contrary to the command - "In the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47847
01/20/06 04:13 PM
01/20/06 04:13 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here are a couple of statements that bring out some point which bear on our study.

quote:
The people of Israel were at this time loyal to God; and so long as they continued in obedience to His law, no power in earth or hell could prevail against them. But the curse which Balaam had not been permitted to pronounce against
God's people, he finally succeeded in bringing upon them by seducing them into sin. When they transgressed God's commandments, then they separated themselves from Him, and they were left to feel the power of the destroyer. (GC 529)

This statement (above) brings out that the curse comes when God withdraws Himself when people choose to separate themselves from Him, which gives power to the destrorer.

quote:
Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. (Ed 26)
This quote brings out that being blighted with a curse is equivalent to having evil every present. It should be understood that the curse is nothing more nor less than the presence of evil. Where evil is present, there is a curse. Where evil is not present, there is no curse. Similarly, where there is a curse, there is evil; and where there is no curse, there is no evil.

Since God does not work evil, neither does He work curses. His pronouncements of curses are the same as His pronouncements of evil. God works no evil, but He tells the truth. Sin always brings about negative results; sickeness, misery, suffering, and death. This is the curse.

Notice that the knowledge of evil involves the result of sin. All the evil there is in nature (or anywhere else) is the result of sin.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47848
01/20/06 04:26 PM
01/20/06 04:26 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Let us remind ourselves that something that is 'well said' may not necessarily be true.

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47849
01/20/06 04:28 PM
01/20/06 04:28 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
MM, since you believe that in a world full of sin death is natural, please explain why the devil has survived all these years?

Re: An Enemy Caused This #47850
01/20/06 05:13 PM
01/20/06 05:13 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
quote:
Recognizing that Satan has been an active agent in the corrupting of God's plan for man, beast, plants, etc., we can better understand what Ellen White may have meant when she described the results of amalgamation. That which "defaced the image of God" in man and that which "confused the species [of animals]" has been the handiwork of Satan with the cooperation of humans. Such "amalgamation of man and [of] beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men," becomes understandable.
So some "races" of men are more defaced from the image of God than others? Can the two "races" be identified?

Does someone care to answere my questions of what and who exactly it is who decides wether a plant or an animal is of evil? Is there any objective criteria or is this ruled by situation ethics?

I am waiting to see this thread backed up by scripture.

/Thomas

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