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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47881
01/22/06 03:21 PM
01/22/06 03:21 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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Redfog, I agree.
Telling the truth about God is better than arguing over "mute" points of theology. However, understanding the truth about how God has handled sin and sinners since the Fall, and how He will eliminate unsaved sinners in the lake of fire says a lot about God. Eliminating sin, sinning, and unsaved sinners is what the plan of salvation and the great controversy is all about. How and why it happens will set the tone for eternity.
There is huge difference between saying 1) “God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence”, and 2) “The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.” Which is it? Do unsaved sinners destroy themselves, or is it the glory of God that destroys them?
“The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.” Again, which is it? Does God Himself punish and destroy unsaved sinners, or does He allow, permit, or command earthly armies, evil and holy angels, and/or the forces of nature to do it for Him?
Either way, what does it say about the character of God? Can God Himself punish and destroy unsaved sinners and be a God of love and truth, mercy and justice? On the other hand, can God be a God of love and truth, mercy and justice and allow, permit, or command earthly armies, evil and holy angels, and/or the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners?
Whoever eliminates sin, sinning, and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire will be forever credited and crowned with heroism, with saving and securing the universe from future outbreaks of sin and death, with disproving Satan's accusations, with proving God is loving, merciful, just, and forever worthy of eternal worship.
Does it matter what we think about it? Will unsaved sinners punish and destroy themselves in the lake of fire? Will they be credited with eliminating it, with they be hailed as heroes throughout eternity? Or, will God eliminate sin and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire, will He be remembered throughout eternity as the One who conquered sin, as the One who set the universe free?
Or, is it a “mute” theological point?
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47882
01/22/06 03:37 PM
01/22/06 03:37 PM
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MM I just don't see how it matters. We know that the wages of sin is death. If I sin I'll lose eternal life and perish in the lake of fire. In any case it will be my failure to have a relationship with my Creator that will cause me so suffer eternal death. God cannot allow sin to keep going, the how He stops it matters not to me because I have faith in a just and true God.
Redfog
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47883
01/22/06 03:38 PM
01/22/06 03:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Redfog:
OK Darius tell us why sin does not cause death.
Redfog, sin doesn't cause death. God is the source of life. We die when He stops sustaining us with life. But real death doesn't happen until the second death. The first death is merely a sleep (not that it isn't a sad thing).
Wasn't the first death really a result of sin?
Isn't this why Adam and Eve and countless others died the first death?
Isn't this why animals also died and still die today?
quote:
Gen. 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
God is obviously referring to the first death in the above quoted verse, which almost everybody must suffer for themselves, the exceptions only being Enoch and Elijah.
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47884
01/22/06 05:36 PM
01/22/06 05:36 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
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Posts: 22,256
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Wasn't the first death really a result of sin?
Sins doesn't cause death, not like cancer causes death. The reasons why we are able to die a long lingering first death, instead of dying the second death the instant we sin, are 1) Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate the forbidden fruit (that's why we're even here today, otherwise the human race would have ended with Adam and Eve), 2) God implemented the plan of salvation, 3) Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, 4) we cannot eat the fruit from the tree of life, 5) God sustains our life, 6) God miraculously heals us, and 7) God eventually withdraws His breath of life and we die.
Isn't this why Adam and Eve and countless others died the first death?
Again, sin is not the cause of death. True, it is the reason why we die, but it is not the cause. The reasons why we die are listed above. God barred access to the tree of life because He didn't want sinners to "eat, and live for ever" (Gen 3:22). If sin is the cause of death then it wouldn't have been necessary for God to place an angel to prevent sinners from eating the fruit of life.
Isn't this why animals also died and still die today?
The same thing applies to animals. They die because God eventually withdraws the breath of life.
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47885
01/22/06 05:52 PM
01/22/06 05:52 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Redfog:
God cannot allow sin to keep going, the how He stops it matters not to me because I have faith in a just and true God.
Yeah, it pretty much boils down to trust, doesn't it? No matter how much we learn about the future fate and demise of unsaved sinners, one thing remains true - how God ends up eliminating sin and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire is a "strange act", an act based on a "name written, that no man knew, but he himself."
Isaiah
28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as [in] mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as [in] the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
We will think and feel the same way about how God punishes and destroys sin and unsaved sinners in the lake of fire that the heavenly inhabitants think and feel about it. We will praise God.
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
Revelation
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47886
01/23/06 01:35 AM
01/23/06 01:35 AM
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MM those white horse verses are pretty dramatic. I'm surprised some special effects movie has not tried to incorperate them into some sort of movie.
Redfog
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47887
01/24/06 04:17 AM
01/24/06 04:17 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Redfog, sin doesn't cause death.
Sure it does. The wages of sin is death. The sting of death is sin.
quote:
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.(James 1:15)
quote:
Show that it was sin which marred God's perfect work; that thorns and thistles, sorrow and pain and death, are all the result of disobedience to God.(The Faith I Live By 274)
Note that sorrow, pain and death are the result of disobedience to God; IOW sin is the cause of death.
quote:
By transgression of this law man brought sin into the world, and with sin came death. (God's Amazing Grace 15)
quote:
God is the life-giver. From the beginning, all His laws were ordained to life. But sin broke in upon the order that God had established, and discord followed. So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. It is only because the Redeemer has borne the curse of sin in our behalf, that man can hope to escape, in his own person, its dire results. (Ibid. 73; also PP 522)
This brings out the principles in a way simple to understand.
1. The Law of God is ordained to life.
2. Disobedience to that law results in death.
Simple! So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. Sin causes suffering and death. The Great Controversy exists to demonstrate this. After thousands of years, and the demonstration of Christ's death on the cross, we should understand this.
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47888
01/24/06 04:22 AM
01/24/06 04:22 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Telling the truth about God is better than arguing over "mute" points of theology. However, understanding the truth about how God has handled sin and sinners since the Fall, and how He will eliminate unsaved sinners in the lake of fire says a lot about God. Eliminating sin, sinning, and unsaved sinners is what the plan of salvation and the great controversy is all about. How and why it happens will set the tone for eternity.
Well said! How God handles sin tells us a lot about Him.
quote:
It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 568)
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47889
01/24/06 04:28 AM
01/24/06 04:28 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
MM I just don't see how it matters. We know that the wages of sin is death. If I sin I'll lose eternal life and perish in the lake of fire. In any case it will be my failure to have a relationship with my Creator that will cause me so suffer eternal death. God cannot allow sin to keep going, the how He stops it matters not to me because I have faith in a just and true God.
These are good questions you are asking! Allow me to requote something from GC 1888, in more detail this time:
quote:
It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law, and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God, so that they regard him with fear and hate, rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion, and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. (GC 1888 568)
It is Satan's desire to cause us to view God's character incorrectly, to view him as cruel, and to seek to serve Him out of fear and hate, rather than love. If we view God as saying, "Do what I say, or I will kill you" this cannot but lead to the type of service EGW is warning us against.
OTOH, if we view sin as that which kills, and view God as doing everything possible, including the giving of His own dear Son, and His suffering the death which should have been ours, then our hearts are softened by the love and mercy of God, and we are compelled to follow Him motivated not by fear, but love and mercy.
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Re: An Enemy Caused This
#47890
01/24/06 04:34 AM
01/24/06 04:34 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A couple more statements pointing out that sin causes death: quote:
Expel sin from your hearts, for sin caused the death of the Son of God. (FILB 313)
quote:
The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. (LHU 324)
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