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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48042
03/10/06 10:38 AM
03/10/06 10:38 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Sinful nature is a false sight of reality.
The point that I was trying to express is that the nature of sin needs to be realized in the following setting:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
This “fear of death” which holds man in bondage is the “false sight of reality” or “false view of God”. This is the nature of sin.
This fear of death comes from viewing God in a way that is false, misrepresented, perverted. What Satan did was to represent God and his word with Satan’s own attributes of Character and thought. Thus he perverted what was a counsel into a threat.
How does fear of death hold someone in bondage to Satan?
Would it not normally cause one to be afraid of sinning?
But the word says that this “fear of death” kept us in bondage to Satan. This fear of death is the result of the false righteousness which Satan hatched using the law of God to establish that condemnation and death is from God.
By insinuating that God in His righteousness is the author of condemnation and death, Satan has duped man into believing that God is such and so prevents him from coming to God for salvation, forgiveness and grace. Thus man remains in bondage to condemnation; not being able to obtain forgiveness, mercy and grace which are freely available at the hand of God.
The “nature of sin” is a false view of God.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48043
03/10/06 01:35 PM
03/10/06 01:35 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Amen, John!
The truth about God, when received in the heart and mind, frees us from bondage. Seeing God as He is, and seeing things as God sees them, establishes His righteousness.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48044
03/12/06 01:24 AM
03/12/06 01:24 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, it is clear that angels praise God for punishing and destroying unsaved sinners. For reasons that may not make sense to us now Jesus will resurrect, judge, punish, and destroy them in the lake of fire.
Also, Jesus did not literally die my death. The evidence is that I'm still very much alive, and so is He. The death He died on our behalf gives Him the legal right to pardon us and to save us if we so desire and cooperate and are faithful unto the end.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48045
03/12/06 01:54 AM
03/12/06 01:54 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, it is clear that angels praise God for punishing and destroying unsaved sinners. Angels will rejoice that sin will be no more. God, and angels, will be very sorry to see God's children die.For reasons that may not make sense to us now Jesus will resurrect, judge, punish, and destroy them in the lake of fire. The reasons are not hard to understand.Also, Jesus did not literally die my death. I don't know what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that Christ figuratively died your death?The evidence is that I'm still very much alive, and so is He. That's no evidence He didn't literally die. He did literally die, and He was literally resurrected.The death He died on our behalf gives Him the legal right to pardon us and to save us if we so desire and cooperate and are faithful unto the end. He has no need for a "legal right" to pardon us. God pardons us because it is His nature to pardon. Consider the following parable: quote:
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. (Matt. 18)
This describes the mechanism of God's forgiveness. He is moved by compassion.
The parable of the prodigal son presents the same truth. God freely forgives because He loves us and is moved by compassion.
If it were true that Christ died in order to give God the legal right to forgive us, then in the thousands of words we have of Christ, would we not expect Him to have brought out this idea at least once?
But can you bring out *even once* the idea from Christ's teachings that He died for the purpose of giving God the legal right to forgive us?
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48046
03/12/06 04:19 AM
03/12/06 04:19 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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MM, please explain how Satan is able to keep man in bondage throught "fear of death".
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48047
03/13/06 01:50 AM
03/13/06 01:50 AM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
The death He died on our behalf gives Him the legal right to pardon us and to save us if we so desire and cooperate and are faithful unto the end.
He has no need for a "legal right" to pardon us. God pardons us because it is His nature to pardon.
I have to be direct, Tom: you've just described anarchy, on God's part. Should God act toward us in any way without the authority of his law, he is operating outside his law - illegally & unconstitutionally, acting contrary to his nature: he cannot restore us to his law by forgiveness and justification without a legal basis for his mercy, else he has nullified his law in the wages of sin not being paid (Rom 6:23). quote:
Consider the following parable:
quote:
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. (Matt. 18)
This describes the mechanism of God's forgiveness. He is moved by compassion.
The parable of the prodigal son presents the same truth. God freely forgives because He loves us and is moved by compassion.
If it were true that Christ died in order to give God the legal right to forgive us, then in the thousands of words we have of Christ, would we not expect Him to have brought out this idea at least once?
But can you bring out *even once* the idea from Christ's teachings that He died for the purpose of giving God the legal right to forgive us?
Tom, you and I are definitely at odds here, for God's need for the right to forgive isn't based on Jesus' teaching, but on the sanctuary service, which was common knowledge in Jesus' day, but he himself did say: quote:
For even the Son of Man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister and to give His life as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45
That ransom wasn't paid to the devil (classic ransom theory), but was a payment under God's law as the wage for our sins (satisfaction theory).
God's compassion toward his people is an expression of his love, which no-one should be questioning!!! The sacrificial lamb served no legal requirement of the sinner giving a life for his own life (Rom 6:23) to atone for himself and receive forgiveness??...While the Lamb of God demonstrated agape for all to see, the symbolic sacrificial system pointing to that promised sacrifice was only a shadow of such a demonstration? - what of God's law???
Sinning is breaking the law, and that has legal penalties of death, and being saved from that penalty takes a legal solution, indeed a lawful solution. That's not a r b i t r a r y, that's justice & mercy.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48048
03/13/06 03:05 AM
03/13/06 03:05 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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It is funny how something can be thought so important in salvation and yet it never once be mentioned in the bible; for example "legal".
Check your concordance!
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48049
03/13/06 04:20 AM
03/13/06 04:20 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Colin, I didn't see any statements of Jesus suggesting that He needed to die to give God a legal right to forgive. You suggest this is implicit in the sanctuary service, but evidently it's not something important to understand, as Jesus never mentioned it. One would think if it were important, Jesus would have mentioned it somewhere. Regarding Jesus' being a ransom for many, He did explain this: quote:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16)
God offered to restore Satan on the condition of repentance and submission. Yet there is no mention of Christ's dying. If you were correct, wouldn't God have been acting unlawfully?
quote:
(Satan) was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. (4SP 319)
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48050
03/13/06 02:30 PM
03/13/06 02:30 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Tom, it is clear that angels praise God for punishing and destroying unsaved sinners.
1.
Angels will rejoice that sin will be no more. God, and angels, will be very sorry to see God's children die.
For reasons that may not make sense to us now Jesus will resurrect, judge, punish, and destroy them in the lake of fire.
The reasons are not hard to understand.
Also, Jesus did not literally die my death.
2.
I don't know what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that Christ figuratively died your death?
The evidence is that I'm still very much alive, and so is He.
That's no evidence He didn't literally die. He did literally die, and He was literally resurrected.
The death He died on our behalf gives Him the legal right to pardon us and to save us if we so desire and cooperate and are faithful unto the end.
3.
He has no need for a "legal right" to pardon us. God pardons us because it is His nature to pardon. Consider the following parable:
The parable of the prodigal son presents the same truth. God freely forgives because He loves us and is moved by compassion.
If it were true that Christ died in order to give God the legal right to forgive us, then in the thousands of words we have of Christ, would we not expect Him to have brought out this idea at least once?
But can you bring out *even once* the idea from Christ's teachings that He died for the purpose of giving God the legal right to forgive us?
1. That may be true, I don't know, because that's not how the Bible or the SOP describes their feelings. God is, no doubt, sorry they did not repent, but He will not be sorry when they receive their reward because they are "worthy".
2. I mean Jesus is not me. I did not die when He died. He died, not me. He died on my behalf, but I did not literally die when He died. I wasn't even born yet.
3. Yes, it is in the heart of God to pardon, but it is also in the heart of God to punish and destroy sinners. God cannot pardon sinners without just cause. He is justified in justifying sinners because our sin debt was paid on the cross.
Were it not for the substitutionary death of Jesus God would have had no option but to punish and destroy Adam and Eve the instant they sinned. Pardon is impossible without the death and righteousness of Jesus.
Pardon would not have entered God's mind had Jesus not offered His blood and righteousness as an atonement. God is a jealous God and will by no means clear or justify the guilty, unrepentant sinner.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48051
03/14/06 03:52 AM
03/14/06 03:52 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Pardon would not have entered God's mind had Jesus not offered His blood and righteousness as an atonement. God is a jealous God and will by no means clear or justify the guilty, unrepentant sinner.
That is a fact whether Jesus died or not.
Christ's death never changed that. It can't.
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