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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48032
03/09/06 01:02 AM
03/09/06 01:02 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Well, I think I've represented all parties accurately, but if not, please chime in and clarify!
Thanks Tom. While I am not keen on the label, I agree with the substance of the definition. As far as the label it is quite evident by the multitude of pages on the topic that there is much confusion; *sigh*.
Now as far as darkness being present at the same time as light; it is rather obvious that light disperses darkness.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48033
03/09/06 01:26 AM
03/09/06 01:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Yes, the mind of Christ isn't added to the carnal mind, to be used together: rather the latter is replaced; however, the carnal mind isn't extinguished thereby, but merely displaced, to be used again at will, as I descibed yesterday.
As for carnal mind defining the nature, I'm familiar with that from an SDANet moderator, but certainly I do view sinful nature as sinful flesh with the mind that naturally goes with it, as I'm familiar with from earlier Adventist literature. Still, it is wrong to equate that definition with a sinner, given the power of the will in free choice: after all, Christians would no longer have sinful natures - since they have the mind of Christ - despite having sinful flesh, but not living by the carnal mind anymore.
The two covenants' clash is only the ready availability of the carnal mind eager to take over from the mind of Christ at any opportunity - especially to do one's own righteousness, so human nature is the combination of flesh and mind settling on the thoughts and actions.
Yes, I'd worked out that John and we disagree, here.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48034
03/09/06 02:31 AM
03/09/06 02:31 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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John has an original way of expressing himself, which is sometimes difficult to understand. But I find myself to be very much in agreement with his overall view of things. I think the differences I have with John are semantical. John can speak up if he disagrees.
Regarding the mind, of course the carnal mind is available to be reused at will. What would be the alternative? Once saved always saved? Instant sanctification with no possibility of reversal? The only question we have to consider is if both the carnal mind and the mind of Christ exist simultaneously, or if it's a matter of one or the other.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48035
03/09/06 12:02 PM
03/09/06 12:02 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
so the sinful heart and mind cannot be saved from itself, since it is the operative part of our sinful nature. We are given new hearts and minds to appreciate God's truth and light in Jesus, unless with "The issue of salvation is the saving of the heart and mind" you weren't proposing that the sinful heart and mind are transformed into light?
Heart and mind of themselves do not have a nature. They espouse the master they serve; whether of sin unto death or of righteousness unto life. So when we by faith accept the mind of Christ we can’t keep another mind. Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48036
03/09/06 02:25 PM
03/09/06 02:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
quote:
so the sinful heart and mind cannot be saved from itself, since it is the operative part of our sinful nature. We are given new hearts and minds to appreciate God's truth and light in Jesus, unless with "The issue of salvation is the saving of the heart and mind" you weren't proposing that the sinful heart and mind are transformed into light?
Heart and mind of themselves do not have a nature. They espouse the master they serve; whether of sin unto death or of righteousness unto life. So when we by faith accept the mind of Christ we can’t keep another mind. Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Yes, faith excludes the carnal mind, but I never said or intimated that returning to the carnal mind from the mind of Christ was a good thing! Letting go of the mind of Christ is refraining from exercise faith, so results indeed in doublemindedness. That that's bad isn't in question, but the ready option of living by the carnal mind is the pivotal point.
The heart and mind do not have a nature, of course, since they are part of a nature, together with the flesh - making the body (of course), while the character is a product of the nature.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48037
03/09/06 02:54 PM
03/09/06 02:54 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, the wages of sin is death. The human race should have ended with the punishment and death of Adam and Eve. It didn't because Jesus stepped in and took their place. He took their sin and second death upon Himself, which He will place upon Satan in the lake of fire. He also earned the right to own all sin and death.
This is obviously a legal arrangement since no man, not even God, can literally sin or die for another.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48038
03/09/06 03:00 PM
03/09/06 03:00 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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PS - In answer to the question that makes up the title of this thread: no, we are not saved by God unleashing His pent up wrath on sin or sinners. By the time we witness it we are already saved or lost. It is too late to repent and convert by then.
On the other hand, if God were to go easy on sin and sinners in the lake of fire it would send the wrong message, which would threaten the security of the universe.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48039
03/09/06 03:35 PM
03/09/06 03:35 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
This is obviously a legal arrangement since no man, not even God, can literally sin or die for another.
Jesus did literally die for me. I don't know why you are asserting otherwise.
quote:
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed."(DA 25)
This is all literally true.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48040
03/09/06 07:44 PM
03/09/06 07:44 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"On the other hand, if God were to go easy on sin and sinners in the lake of fire it would send the wrong message, which would threaten the security of the universe." I've been thinking about this statement. It seems to me it is as backwards as it is possible for a statement to be. I'll explain.
First of all, one must ask, what is the message that is being sent by the destruction of sin and sinners? Is it, "Do what I tell you, or I'll kill you?" That's a message which would threaten the security of the universe, not obtain it. The effect of "serving" God out of fear is seen in history of the Jews at Jesus' time. They put Him to death thinking they were honoring God. Fear leads one to "serve" while all the time hating the One being served.
What is it that does make the universe secure? It is knowledge of the truth. quote:
Through Christ's redeeming work the government of God stands justified. The Omnipotent One is made known as the God of love. Satan's charges are refuted, and his character unveiled. Rebellion can never again arise. Sin can never again enter the universe. Through eternal ages all are secure from apostasy. By love's self-sacrifice, the inhabitants of earth and heaven are bound to their Creator in bonds of indissoluble union. (DA 26)
It is not fear which secures the universe, but love. Now as to why your comment is exactly backwards, consider the following:
quote:
his is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
This is from the chapter entitled, "It is Finished," which disucess the ramifications of Christ's death on the cross. One of these is the security of the universe. She spends quite a bit of time discussing this, and these paragraphs fit into this discussion.
In the first paragraph cited she points out that the destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act which God does, but rather the result of the choice of the wicked who separate themselves from God. The second paragraph is the one we want to hone in on.
Notice she writes, "at the beginning of the great contoversy, the angels did not understand this." What is "this"? "This" is that the death of the wicked is not due to an arbitrary act on God's part. Without the development of the presentation of the two governments, and in particular without Christ's death on the cross, this is how it would have appeared. She continues, "Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin." Instead of appearing as what it actually is, the inevitable result of sin, it would have appeared as something it is not, an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. In order to *prevent* this misunderstanding from taking place, God permitted sin to continue.
So the irony of your suggestion is that it is precisely for the purpose that the message you are suggesting as the reason of the destruction of the wicked *not* be misunderstood as the reason for their destruction that God allowed sin to continue at all. The very reason you suggest as what secures the universe is that which would have placed it in jeapordy! God took action, very costly action, to prevent this misunderstanding from taking place. The angels and unfallen worlds have understood. Now heaven is just remaining for us.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48041
03/09/06 08:57 PM
03/09/06 08:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
The only question we have to consider is if both the carnal mind and the mind of Christ exist simultaneously, or if it's a matter of one or the other.
I believe they exist simultaneously, but they cannot be satisfied simultaneously. The flesh (carnal mind) lusts against the Spirit (mind of Christ) in all things. The will - the governing power in our nature - must choose which way to go. He who is born of God always chooses the Spirit, and the carnal mind/flesh/body is put under.
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