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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48145
03/11/06 06:49 PM
03/11/06 06:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If the problem of sin were in the flesh, there would be not hope for us, since we're stuck with it. The purpose of the devil is to control the mind through the flesh. The purpose of God is to control the flesh through the mind. Here's some thoughts of Waggoner's regarding the flesh: quote:
The Weakness of the Law. The law is strong enough to condemn, but it is weak, even powerless, with respect to what man needs namely, salvation. It was and is "weak through the flesh." The law is good, and holy, and just, but man has no strength to perform it. Just as an axe may be of good steel, and very sharp, yet unable to cut down a tree because the arm that has hold of it has no strength, so the law of God could not perform itself. It set forth man's duty; it remained for him to do it. But he could not, and therefore Christ came to do it in him. What the law could not do, God did by his Son.
Likeness of Sinful Flesh. There is a common idea that this means that Christ simulated sinful flesh; that he did not take upon himself actual sinful flesh, but only what appeared to be such. But the Scriptures do not teach such a thing. "In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Heb. 2:17. He was "born of a woman, born under the law," that he might redeem them that were under the law. Gal. 4:4, 5.
He took the same flesh that all have who are born of woman. A parallel text to Romans 8:3, 4 is found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. The former says that Christ was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." The latter says that God "made him to be sin for us," although he knew no sin, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
"Compassed with Infirmity." All the comfort that we can get from Christ lies in the knowledge that he was made in all things as we are. Otherwise we should hesitate to tell him of our weaknesses and failures. The priest who makes sacrifices for sins must be one "who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity." Heb. 5:2.
This applies perfectly to Christ; "for we have not an High Priest which can not be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15. This is why we may come boldly to the throne of grace for mercy. So perfectly has Christ identified himself with us, that he even now feels our sufferings.
The Flesh and the Spirit. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." Note that this depends on the preceding statement, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The things of the Spirit are the commandments of God, because the law is spiritual. The flesh serves the law of sin (see the preceding chapter, and Galatians 5:19-21, where the works of the flesh are described). But Christ came in the same flesh, to show the power of the Spirit over the flesh. "They that are in the flesh can not please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwell in you."
Now no one will claim that the flesh of a man is any different after his conversion from what it was before. Least of all will the converted man himself say so; for he has continual evidence of its perversity. But if he is really converted, and the Spirit of Christ dwells in him, he is no more in the power of the flesh. Even so Christ came in the same sinful flesh, yet he was without sin, because he was always led by the Spirit. (Waggoner on Romans; Chapter 8)
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48146
03/11/06 07:28 PM
03/11/06 07:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
So the power of temptation lies in a false perception of God.
What is it about the false perception that establishes the strength of temptation?
Why should a false idea about God have such profound impact upon its owner?
What happens in the heart and mind of the person who thinks it?
Great questions John!
I'll start with the last one first. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." As a person harbors erroneous ideas regarding God's character, it can't help but impact the spiritual life. If we view, even unconsciously, God as One who arbitrarily destroys, it must result in our unconsciously resenting God.
We know that God is great in power. We know we can't fight Him. It's His way or the highway. To the extent we view Him as the enemy has portrayed Him, as One who arbitrarily governs by force, annhiliating His opposition, we cannot be impacted . We become like the God we worship. By beholding we become changed. This is why it is so important we behold the truth as it is in Jesus.
Ok, the false perception question. False perceptions lead to fear, anger, resentment and hatred, even if only unconsciously. These give strength to temptation, as our false perceptions foster rebellion in us.
There's a great EGW quote on this. I'll see if I can find it.
This is it:
quote:
A sullen submission to the will of the Father will develop the character of a rebel. By such a one service is looked upon as drudgery. It is not rendered cheerfully, and in the love of God. It is a mere mechanical performance. If he dared, such a one would disobey. His rebellion is smothered, ready to break out at any time in bitter murmurings and complaints. (7/22/97)
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48147
03/11/06 10:03 PM
03/11/06 10:03 PM
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quote:
So the power of temptation lies in a false perception of God.
I wouldn't say it is the "power" of temptation, but the "excuse" to hang on to sin lies in a false perception of God. Can we agree that Jesus was a true representation of God the Father?
quote:
Christ came from heaven to give to the world a correct representation of the Father. He says, "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." And when one of the disciples made the request, "Show us the Father," Jesus answered, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" {BTS, January 1, 1909 par. 3}
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48148
03/12/06 01:14 AM
03/12/06 01:14 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Not sinning is not righteousness. Sinning and righteousness have nothing in common. They are not opposites; not even close. Satan is not the opposite of Jesus; not even close.
Resisting temptation is not the goal of the gospel. Instead, the goal of the gospel is to reproduce the sinless traits of Jesus' character. We need to get beyond not sinning and move on to becoming more and more like Jesus.
Jesus did more than merely resist temptation - He perfectly reflected the lovely character of God.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48149
03/12/06 01:19 AM
03/12/06 01:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I think "power" is a good choice of words. I think "excuse" gives the wrong idea. Consider the following quote: quote:
"Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self- exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. (DA 22)
The means by which Satan gets us to sin is by misrepresenting God's character. This is how sin came about in the first place. This is the central issue.
The following quote says this even more clearly:
quote:
By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. (GC 500)
Satan gets us to sin by misrepresenting God's character. That's why temptations get their power from a misunderstaning of God's character.
Regarding Christ's representing the Father, not only was this what Christ did, this is all Christ did. That is, it was not a purpose of His mission, but the whole purpose of His mission:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48150
03/12/06 01:32 AM
03/12/06 01:32 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Resisting temptation is not the goal of the gospel. Instead, the goal of the gospel is to reproduce the sinless traits of Jesus' character. We need to get beyond not sinning and move on to becoming more and more like Jesus.
MM, This is really a welcome statement from you.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48151
03/12/06 02:04 AM
03/12/06 02:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Sinning and righteousness have nothing in common. They are not opposites; not even close.
quote:
All unrighteousness is sin.
quote:
Sin is the transgression of the law.
This is from 1 John 5:18 and 1 John 3:4. Putting these together we see that unrighteousness is the transgression of the law. Or, in other words, unrighteousness is sin. Assuming unrighteousness is the opposite of righteousness, sinning *is* the opposite of righteousness.
I think what you're meaning to say is that righteousness involved more than simply not doing certain bad things. If that's your meaning, that's true. But since for him who knows to do right and does it not commits sin, and given that the law reaches the innermost thoughts and desires of man, unrighteousness (or sinning) involves much more than meets the eye.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48152
03/12/06 03:46 AM
03/12/06 03:46 AM
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quote:
I think what you're meaning to say is that righteousness involved more than simply not doing certain bad things.
that's essentially what I thought he said...or at least how he meant what he said.
jeff
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48153
03/12/06 11:59 AM
03/12/06 11:59 AM
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quote:
Jesus did more than merely resist temptation - He perfectly reflected the lovely character of God.
I agree MM...Jesus perfectly reflected the character of God in EVERY WAY.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48154
03/12/06 12:03 PM
03/12/06 12:03 PM
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That is why, MM, when people tell me that Jesus had "pride" and other sinful emotions in His "flesh", I say they are wrong.... Jesus is God, right? He said, "I and my Father are One...if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Did the Father have "pride" or any other sinful emotion ANYWHERES in Him? I don't believe so...and NEITHER did Jesus. How could He if he is a perfect representation of God the Father?
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