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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48165
03/14/06 04:50 PM
03/14/06 04:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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So you think that Priebe thinks that Christ had the sin of pride? So if I send him and email, and ask him, "Dennis, do you think Christ had the sin of pride?" that Dennis would say, "Yes."
This is what you are asserting, Tammy?
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48166
03/15/06 03:10 AM
03/15/06 03:10 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
MM said:
I suspect sin is a distortion of something good. Not that it is the opposite of righteousness.
Are you talking of a paradigm shift, where the concept has changed?
Could it be distortion of justice? How would that affect temptation?
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Has sin succeeded in distorting (changing) the concept of justice to produce death?
On the other hand, would you say that death is a distortion of life, not the opposite of life?
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48167
03/15/06 12:24 PM
03/15/06 12:24 PM
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Tom, I really don't know what Priebe will say when you email him that question. This quote: quote:
Are not our problems basically self and pride and the desires that come from our fallen natures? Do we not fall most often because of the inner desires that lead us astray? If Jesus did not have any of these, could it really be true that He was tempted in all points as we are?FF-59.
is in his NEW edition...this is not the quote he reworded. If he didn't mean this, then he shouldn't say it like this, cause that is what it definently implies. This is something you and I will probably go around and around forever...you'll never convince me that is not what he means, and it looks like I'll never convince you, but please don't think I don't believe it, cause I do. If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't say it. I am into, "Saying what you mean and meaning what you say."
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48168
03/15/06 04:01 PM
03/15/06 04:01 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
quote:
MM said:
I suspect sin is a distortion of something good. Not that it is the opposite of righteousness.
1. Are you talking of a paradigm shift, where the concept has changed?
2. Could it be distortion of justice? How would that affect temptation?
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
3. Has sin succeeded in distorting (changing) the concept of justice to produce death?
4. On the other hand, would you say that death is a distortion of life, not the opposite of life?
1. For example, a hungry person steals because they cannot afford to pay for it. A sad person hits someone.
2 & 3. I don't understand the questions.
4. Death, at the least second death, is the end of life, not a distortion of it. Unless the Catholic concept of hell is true.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48169
03/15/06 04:06 PM
03/15/06 04:06 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Tammy, when Jesus gave us the 10 C's He confessed that He is a "jealous" God. Normally we consider jealously to be something bad, but in the case of Jesus it means something good, right?
I once did a week of prayer titled - Abide with Pride. I used the word pride in the positive sense. I suspect sin is a distortion of something good. Not that it is the opposite of righteousness.
I am very proud of what Jesus has done for me and is doing for me. I am proud of who I am in Jesus. I love how He empowers me to be like Him. It is so, so wonderful and awesome.
Was Jesus tempted to be proud in the wrong sense? Yes, of course, He was. He was tempted in every way we are tempted. Did pride abide in Him? Yes, of course, it did. Did He ever manifest it in the wrong way? No, of course not.
Tammy, when you have the time I would appreciate it if you would respond to this post. Thank you.
Tom, thank you for your response.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48170
03/15/06 06:34 PM
03/15/06 06:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Are not our problems basically self and pride and the desires that come from our fallen natures? Do we not fall most often because of the inner desires that lead us astray? If Jesus did not have any of these, could it really be true that He was tempted in all points as we are?
Look at this sentence "Do we not fall most often because of the inner desires that lead us astray?" Priebe is speaking of desires, desires which come from our fallen nature.
He's not saying Christ was proud, or that Christ exercized the sin of pride. Do you understand this?
We've got MM saying the same thing Priebe was saying. Do you think MM thinks Christ committed the sin of pride or was proud? He says "pride abided in Christ?"
If you can understand MM, you should be able to understand Priebe. They're saying the same thing.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48171
03/16/06 11:09 AM
03/16/06 11:09 AM
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quote:
Was Jesus tempted to be proud in the wrong sense? Yes, of course, He was. He was tempted in every way we are tempted. Did pride abide in Him? Yes, of course, it did. Did He ever manifest it in the wrong way? No, of course not.
Well, MM, I can’t agree with you or Priebe. I can agree with the statement “Jesus was tempted to be proud in the wrong sense.” Of course, He was tempted with every temptation there is (but I don’t think you and I are on the same page on this “temptation” point.) But I cannot agree that any pride or self was in Him, anywheres. Obviously we would agree He never manifested any pride or self, or it would have been all over for us and Him. But, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe you can have pride, as long as it isn’t manifested, right? I definitely don’t agree with that. I do not believe Jesus had ANY inclinations to sin of any kind.
Priebe says on pg. 59 of his first of FF: quote:
“Why did Jesus say , ‘I seek not mine own will’ (John 5:30), and ‘I come down from heaven, not to do mine own will’ (John 6:38)? Why would it be necessary to say this if His own will was faultless and pure, and holy? But if His own will and His own inclination were tending toward the negative, then it would make sense for Him to ask that His Father’s will be done.”
He says Jesus’ “own will and His own inclination were tending toward the negative”! Ellen White says, quote:
“They should mourn over their inclination to sin, over the danger they are in from inward corruption and from outward temptation. They should be afraid because they have so feeble a sense of the sinfulness of sin, and so little idea of what constitutes sin.” (Letter 13, 1893). {7BC 938.5}
Priebe says Jesus had “inclinations that were tending toward the negative” and EGW says “they should mourn over their inclination to sin”. Obviously, having an inclination toward the negative is something you should mourn over, so is that something you think was in Jesus? Something we should “mourn over”? I sure hope not!
This is the quote that Priebe re-worded in his new edition, but he told us personally, he still agrees with what he said in the 1st edition – I quote from the 1st edition, because it shows the error of his teaching more clearly. If he had told us he no longer believes what he wrote in the 1st edition, I would not quote from that edition, but that is not the case.
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48172
03/17/06 03:45 AM
03/17/06 03:45 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tammy, how do you explain Jesus being a "jealous" God? The same logic you apply to this trait of character applies to "pride". In other words, there are godly forms of pride. That's the kind of pride that abided in Jesus. It abides in us, too, but before we are born again we manifest it in ungodly ways.
Do you agree?
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48173
03/16/06 05:55 PM
03/16/06 05:55 PM
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quote:
Tammy, how do you explain Jesus being a "jealous" God? The same logic you apply to this trait of character applies to "pride". In other words, there are godly forms of pride. That's the kind of pride that abided in Jesus. It abides in us, too, but before we are born again we manifest it in ungodly ways.
Do you agree?
Well, it depends on the kind of pride, Tom. This kind of pride would not have been in Jesus...
quote:
The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. {SC 30.1}
And honestly, I don't believe the good kind of pride that you are referring to, is the kind Priebe is talking about because he says quote:
Are not our problems basically self and pride and the desires that come from our fallen natures? Do we not fall most often because of the inner desires that lead us astray?
If he was talking about the good kind of pride, well, that good kind of pride doesn't cause us to fall, right? So obviously, Priebe is talking about the bad kind of pride...can we agree?
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Re: Understanding Temptation
#48174
03/17/06 02:18 PM
03/17/06 02:18 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike,
I agree with you that sin is the distortion of something good. But the reasoning you are presenting won't work to defend your position, because you believe Jesus inherited selfishness, and there is no way selfishness can be positive or godly.
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