(Questions from MM on another thread - moved the questions here)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect you believe all of Jesus’ temptations originated outside of Him, that He was never tempted from within. Did I read you right?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just answered this one on the thread "Understanding Temptation"...if you don't mind, I won't take the time to repeat it here...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another question: Do you believe Jesus was ever tempted to do something inherently evil? For example, was He ever tempted to steal, cheat, lie, murder, break the Sabbath, etc.? Or, do you believe He was only tempted to do things that were inherently right at the wrong time or for the wrong reasons?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand there is some kind of teaching out there that says that Jesus' temptations were only of the "good" kind. That is not true...if it were true, then the Bible doesn't mean what it says when it says "He was in ALL points tempted like as we are." No MM, I do not believe that for one moment. Hopefully the answer to the previous question in the other thread will help you to see where I am coming from.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe Jesus was ever tempted to do something inherently evil, something that was in and of itself completely wrong, totally self-serving and absolutely selfish?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely! Satan tempted Jesus with every temptation...but the KEY is, He NEVER found them "tempting". He ALWAYS saw the temptations for what they were. Look at this quote, and notice how Satan saw the temptation and how Jesus saw the temptation:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He [Satan] asked the Saviour to bow to his authority, promising that if He would do so, the kingdoms of the world would be His. He pointed Christ to his success in the world, enumerating the principalities and powers that were subject to him. He declared that what the law of Jehovah could not do, he had done. {5BC 1083.4}
But Jesus said, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." This was to Christ just what the Bible declares it to be--a temptation. Before His sight the tempter held the kingdoms of the world. As Satan saw them, they possessed great external grandeur. But Christ saw them in a different aspect, just as they were--earthly dominions under the power of a tyrant. He saw humanity full of woe, suffering under the oppressive power of Satan. He saw the earth defiled by hatred, revenge, malice, lust, and murder. He saw fiends in the possession of the bodies and souls of men (MS 33, 1911). {5BC 1083.5}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how Satan saw these attractions:
*
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Satan saw them, they possessed great external grandeur.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how Jesus saw the very same temptations:
*
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Christ saw them in a different aspect, just as they were--earthly dominions under the power of a tyrant. He saw humanity full of woe, suffering under the oppressive power of Satan. He saw the earth defiled by hatred, revenge, malice, lust, and murder. He saw fiends in the possession of the bodies and souls of men.

Tammy, I just finished reading Allen’s book entitled – Another Jesus. I felt like I was reading a transcript of Allen giving a Bible study to someone. An interesting writing style. Thank you for sharing it.

After reading it I was left with the impression that Allen believes Jesus was never really, truly tempted to think, say, or do something evil, not like we are, that He so thoroughly hated sin that He never labored, agonized, wrestled, or strived resisting sin like we do.

I also got the distinct impression that he believes we are not truly victorious over sin, self, and Satan until our sinful nature is transformed, until our internal foes no longer tempt us from within.

These insights lead me to wonder how his views differ from those of the holy flesh movement. Can you speak to this concern?

He also seemed to indicate that overcoming the sinful traits and tendencies we inherited and cultivated requires a rather long time, that victory is not readily available until after we accumulate years of experience.

This causes me to wonder what will happen to who die before finish overcoming? Will God simply resurrect them without their unconquered habits? Or, will He hold them accountable?

It also makes me ask – Was Paul more righteous and more sinless than the thief on the cross? Are the 144,000 more righteous and more sinless than all the others?

One more question, when Jesus implants within us a new heart and mind does that mean we cannot be tempted from within any more? that we are like Jesus who, according to Allen's study, was never tempted with internal foes?

Certainly His sinful flesh never clamoured for sinful indulgences. Otherwise He would have been "inclined to sin" and I just posted that quote yesterday that said how we should "mourn" over "inclinations to sin". Surely, Jesus had no "inclinations to sin."

MM, I'm glad you read the book, but I think you drew many wrong conclusions. Please reread chapter 9 - "Temptation Is...". (Please read page 27 over again, also.) You are missing the whole point about our "response" to temptation. You believe that in order for something to really be a temptation, you must have a desire for it. That is incorrect.

Because I don't have alot of time, would you mind talking with Al about these questions on the phone? He is not a very fast typer and it would take him a LONG time to answer the questions, and you would be able to cover alot of ground on the phone. Here is his #: 440-813-4377. The best times to reach him is between 6am-8am and 11am-2pm (eastern time). Call us when you can! (Anyone else who has questions is welcome to call, too !)
Tammy

Here is an email we received from a fellow Friday night who just read the book, "Another Jesus"... I'm just sharing it with you, so that you can see that others are not coming to the same conclusions you are from reading it.

quote:

---

Hi guys, don't know if you remember me, we met at __________. You gave my friend and I some books as we talked about the nature of Christ. Anyway just wanted to let you know that I have found "Another Jesus" to be fantastic. It so moved me, that actually I will be giving a sermon tommorrow covering the highlights. Thank you for allowing Christ to use you! I cannot understand how anyone would disagree with
something so simple that even a child could understand. But, this we know is the darkness of sin. May God bless, sam

---

Tammy, thank you for the number. I called the one in the book but it was not working. Please take the time, when you can, to address the questions in my last two posts on the preceding page. Thank you.

Pardon my jumping in, since you addressed MM. Jesus was not excluded from any sort of temptation because in addition to taking our flesh, He took our sin. He was tempted in all points as we are, encompassing both cultivated and hereditary tendencies (the cultivated ones being ours, of course). It is only in that Christ overcame that we can overcome. We do nothing He hasn't done before.

Adam and Eve were created with holy flesh. They didn't need to do anything to obtain it.

Tom,

Of course you know I disagree with your first point.

As to the second point, I'm evidently referring to their condition after the fall. Unless you believe they continued to have holy flesh after the fall.