I've never spoken of nature imploding on itself. That's your language.

What do you think would have happened to earth if Jesus hadn´t implemented the plan of salvation?

That's a bit speculative, isn't it? If God hadn't implemented the plan of salvation, the human race would have been lost. That's the important thing.

We can see through nature that sin has had devasting effects. I doubt the moon is as God originally created it. We know that many suns are being extinguished. God certainly didn't create the starts to die. There's all sort of destruction that goes in space. You don't think these destructive events will continue throughout eternity, do you? That stars will go out? That the second law of thermal dynamics will rule? (i.e. entropy)

I've not thought about your question before. I suppose it depends on what God would do instead of the Plan of Salvation. Would he create a new human race?

Have I answered your question? I'm not really sure what you're getting at. I've tried to hit some related principles, which I hope helps.

What did Jesus mean when He said the following parable and explanation of a parable? As the general belief seems to be that He cannot have been speaking about a burning of wicked in fire or a fiery furnance?

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Matthew 13 36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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/Thomas

I understand the meaning to be that expressed here:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

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Also here:

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.(DA 108)

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Note that the same thing that gives life to the righteous destroys the wicked. That's a key point. Very important.

In Scripture we see the idea here:

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14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15He that walketh righteously (Isa. 33:14, 15)

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Putting this together we see that it is not an arbitrary act of power which destroys the wicked, but God is Himself a consuming fire to sin. The light of the glory of God (i.e. the truth about His character; light=truth, God's glory is His character) which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.

Tom, as you know, I do not believe our sinning on earth has any physical effect on deep space. If anything is happening out there, which there is no way we can know for sure, then it is the result of Jesus allowing evil angels to do something to it.

Neither do I believe our sins are having any physical effect on the earth, except for the things we do to it directly like contaminate it. The evil angels, on the other hand, are busy doing things to earth in accordance with what Jesus allows. The laws of entropy were introduced when Jesus cursed the earth. It has nothing to do with our sinning except in the sense Jesus did it because our first parents sinned.

Tom, as you know, I do not believe our sinning on earth has any physical effect on deep space.

What about Satan's sin? It doesn't really matter who's sin is responsible for it. The fact remains that it is sin which causes these things. God did not design the stars to burn out, for example.

If anything is happening out there, which there is no way we can know for sure, then it is the result of Jesus allowing evil angels to do something to it.

There is hardly anything more certain in physics then the Second Law of Thermodynamics. There is nowhere in the universe where the evidence for entropy is not seen. It's not a question of knowing or not knowing. We know.


Neither do I believe our sins are having any physical effect on the earth, except for the things we do to it directly like contaminate it.

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For creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Because creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Rom. 8:20-22 KJV;original says "the creature" where we would say "creation")

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The evil angels, on the other hand, are busy doing things to earth in accordance with what Jesus allows. The laws of entropy were introduced when Jesus cursed the earth. It has nothing to do with our sinning except in the sense Jesus did it because our first parents sinned.

It has nothing to do with sinning except that it wouldn't exist if there were no sin. That's an interesting observation.

A little above you said it was the evil angels doing it. Now you're saying it's Jesus. That's also interesting.

Tom, tell me, who cursed the earth? Was it Jesus? Or, was it the Devil? Who is it that allows evil angels to pervert the laws of nature, to cause death, disease, and destruction? Who is it that imposes restrictions upon evil angels, that prevents them from doing more than has been permitted? Who is it that sometimes commands holy angels to carry out his purposes and punishment when humans sin, and who sometimes permits evil angels to cause death and destruction when it suits his plans and purposes?

Tom, the answer to these questions requires one word: Jesus or Satan. Which one do you believe it is - Jesus or Satan. One word, please. A one word post will suffice. Thank you.

Tom, tell me, who cursed the earth?

Man caused the earth to be cursed. Sin is the curse. Man was the one who sinned.

Was it Jesus? Or, was it the Devil? Who is it that allows evil angels to pervert the laws of nature, to cause death, disease, and destruction? Who is it that imposes restrictions upon evil angels, that prevents them from doing more than has been permitted? Who is it that sometimes commands holy angels to carry out his purposes and punishment when humans sin, and who sometimes permits evil angels to cause death and destruction when it suits his plans and purposes?

Tom, the answer to these questions requires one word: Jesus or Satan. Which one do you believe it is - Jesus or Satan. One word, please. A one word post will suffice. Thank you.

Did you stop beating your wife? A one word post will suffice.

Really, MM, your request is unreasonable. How could I answer your last question, which has built into it presuppositions which are false, with one word? Any word I chose would be tacitly accepting the presuppositions. If you are interested in what my thoughts are on a certain issue, just ask and I'll be happy to discuss them with you.

Regarding the question of the curse, perhapse the following quote will help:

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Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares.(2SM 288)

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