How does God destroy?

It's interesting to me that there has been a distortion of the view I've been trying to present of God's character. The view I'm trying to present can summarized in the simple statement that God is just like Jesus: "When you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father." Or as the Spirit of Prophecy puts is:

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All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. 8T 286

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The view I have been presenting has been misrepresented by some as "God does not destroy." To the best of my knowledge, I've not written this. It seems very odd to me that the ideas I'm presenting should be characterized using words I've not said. Very odd indeed. If you want to correctly characterize what I've been presenting, please characterize it like this: "God is like Jesus." That would concur with what I've written.

What seems even odder to me is that one who supposedly followed an author who presented ideas related to this subject would not understand what that author taught. This author has a chapter entitled: "God does destroy -- but how?" How this could be misconstrued as "God does not destroy" is beyond me.

One of the quotes I most often post is this one:

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To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 108)

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This quote not only states that God destroys, but God slays the wicked. There are of course many statements in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy which state this. Our task is to understand the meaning behind the words. The point I've made in this given quote is that it is the same thing which gives life to the righteous which slays the wicked, and is hence not some arbitrary or imposed action on the part of God which causes it.

So, in conclusion, one can say that God destroys, as both Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy state. The difference between the view I'm presenting and the alternative is that I see one primary mechanism working, as opposed to two. The mechanism I see is described here:

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The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.(GC 35)

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Understanding the character of God allows one to see that this principle applies in many situations. The alternative is to not know what is happening in a given situation, unless it is specifically stated somewhere. Not understanding the underlying principles can lead one to be deceived in the end of time, when the whole question is who the real Christ is. For example, when the plagues are going on, it will be helpful to know whether it is God or Satan who is causing them.

Tom, the difference between your view and the one I subscribe to, so far as I know, is that I believe Jesus has used various active and passive means and methods to punish and destroy sinners, whereas you seem to believe He has never directly caused anyone to suffer or die, that Satan, not God, is the one responsible for all the suffering and dying that occurs on earth.

You maintain, however, that the Devil is not free to cause death and destruction without the express permission of Jesus, and that he is required to work within the limitations and boundaries that Jesus Himself establishes. That is, Satan cannot exceed the will of God. You are very careful, though, to differentiate between what Jesus is willing to allow and what His ultimate will is. What He allows is not necessarily what He wishes.

You seem to believe Jesus is holding back the inevitable results of sinning as if nature would immediately implode upon itself were it not for the grace of God. You seem to think that Jesus destroys people by simply allowing the laws and forces of nature to run their natural, unchecked course. You have stated that you suspect the Flood and Fire that destroyed the Antediluvians and the Sodomites were the result of Jesus allowing nature to unleash its impending, pent up power.

And, you also seem to believe that the “fire” that Jesus will rain down upon sinners at the end of time is symbolic of His glory, that it is not literal fire, and that the physical suffering sinners experience, as described in the Bible and the SOP, is merely symbolic of soul anguish. You seem to interpret all the passages that describe the physical suffering caused by the “fire” in the spiritual context of “our God is a consuming fire.” You do not seem to think that this “fire” are flames that cause intense suffering.

How did I do? Did I accurately summarize your view?

Tom, the difference between your view and the one I subscribe to, so far as I know, is that I believe Jesus has used various active and passive means and methods to punish and destroy sinners, whereas you seem to believe He has never directly caused anyone to suffer or die, that Satan, not God, is the one responsible for all the suffering and dying that occurs on earth.

This is essentially correct. I believe that God both sustains and protects us. If He removes either His sustenance or protection, we die (or other things die, such as fig trees).

I also believe that because of the hardness of man's heart, God gave counsel on a number of things, such as slavery, polygamy, divorce and warfare, which were not things He Himself wanted. For example, although God gave counsel regarding divorce, Malachi records God as saying "I had divorce." Similarly God hates polygamy, slavery and warfare.

Satan is the author of sin, suffering, and death. As such, he is responsible for all the sin, suffering and death there is; not just on earth, but throughout the universe. God has been fighting against these things from the beginning. The judgment will show that God has eliminated sin as far as it was possible to do so.

You maintain, however, that the Devil is not free to cause death and destruction without the express permission of Jesus,

This is your way of stating things. I've never said this. Your way of putting it makes it sound like Jesus is complicit.

and that he is required to work within the limitations and boundaries that Jesus Himself establishes.

This is what Job teaches us, isn't it?

That is, Satan cannot exceed the will of God.

I wouldn't put it this way, as, once again, it makes it sound like God is complicit, which He isn't. The way I put it is the way Sister White does:

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We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. (GC 35)

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You are very careful, though, to differentiate between what Jesus is willing to allow and what His ultimate will is. What He allows is not necessarily what He wishes.

Yes. This is well stated.

You seem to believe Jesus is holding back the inevitable results of sinning as if nature would immediately implode upon itself were it not for the grace of God.

I wouldn't put it this way. The way I would put it is that nature is extremely complex, far beyond our ability to manage, or even comprehend. It takes God to manage it. Sin has caused nature to act much differently than how God designed it. Even without sin, nature still would have been complex and needed the management of God. But with sin in the picture, things are even more complicated. There are negative forces, including entropy, and many other physical and natural forces, which require God's active management to counterman.

For example, the Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the earth stays in its path around the sun because of God's active control. How long would we last if the earth were to swing out of control? Not long. That's just one example.

The idea you are expressing is essentially correct, but I think you have a naive understanding of the principle, which is why you are expressing the principle the way you do.

You seem to think that Jesus destroys people by simply allowing the laws and forces of nature to run their natural, unchecked course. You have stated that you suspect the Flood and Fire that destroyed the Antediluvians and the Sodomites were the result of Jesus allowing nature to unleash its impending, pent up power.

I've never stated this. MM, you need to be careful to distinguish between ideas I've expressed, and things I've stated. When you say something like "you have stated" that gets to something I've actually said, as in my words. So I'll have to reply negatively to this one, because I've never stated what you are here claiming I have. There's some truth to the general idea however. I think I've already expressed my thoughts on this above (in this post), but if you wish me to comment more on this I will.

And, you also seem to believe that the “fire” that Jesus will rain down upon sinners at the end of time is symbolic of His glory, that it is not literal fire, and that the physical suffering sinners experience, as described in the Bible and the SOP, is merely symbolic of soul anguish.

No, this isn't quite right. I think the scenario that Rosangela has suggested is possible (that God's glory causes the earth to catch on fire, is how I think she put it). I don't disagree that there will be literal fire involved. I disagree with the idea that God supernaturally keeps people alive so they can be scalded by the molten lava for differing amounts of time to make them pay for their sins, which is how I understand what you think.

Regarding the destruction of the wicked, I think DA 764 gives a detailed and accurate account as to what happens. I also think the statment from DA 108 that "the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked" is very significant. It points out that the same thing that gives life to one group of people -- the truth about God's character -- is that which kills another. So it is not a matter of God doing something arbitrary to destroy, or kill, the wicked, but simply God being God.


You seem to interpret all the passages that describe the physical suffering caused by the “fire” in the spiritual context of “our God is a consuming fire.” You do not seem to think that this “fire” are flames that cause intense suffering.

How did I do? Did I accurately summarize your view?

I think you did quite well (taking into account the comments I've given). I should to the same regarding your view. That is, I'll try to summarize how I understand your view, and you can comment on how well I've done.

I applaud greatly your attempts. One of the best things we can do in a dialog is to try to understand what someone with whom we disagree things, and accurately represent it.

Okay, Tom, I await your summary of the view I have embraced, that is, a summary of how God destroys. Hopefully you will resist the temptation to criticize me or it. Thank you.

PS - Your comment about me being "naive" was rude and unnecessary. Please stop posting such remarks. Thank you.

The following is a summary of some aspects I understand to be MM's point of view:

Regarding destruction, you appear to believe that sin has very little, or no, destructive power on its own. If God did not intervene, taking matters into His own hands to destroy sinners, sin would continue indefinately.

God sometimes destroys by withdrawing His protection. Sometimes God destroys by taking matters into His own hands. In either case, God gets the credit. He is the destroyer.

God created a situation in which sin was inevitable. Therefore God gets the credit for the existence of sin. God is the author of sin, suffering and death.

The reason God does not destroy the righteous is because He unleashed His wrath against His Son. So those who fulfill the conditions that God has set are spared from His unleashed wrath, because they get credit for the unleashed wrath upon His Son.

When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.

Tom, what would nature do if Jesus were to all of a sudden stop restraining it from responding to our sinning by imploding upon itself?


TE - Regarding destruction, you appear to believe that sin has very little, or no, destructive power on its own. If God did not intervene, taking matters into His own hands to destroy sinners, sin would continue indefinately.


MM - Correct. Sin is not a person or thing that can weild power like a tyrant. If God left earth to itself, without humans or demons to mess things up, it would eventually return to its pre-creation week state, that is, a big ball covered with water. It would not have imploded like a bomb.


TE - God sometimes destroys by withdrawing His protection. Sometimes God destroys by taking matters into His own hands. In either case, God gets the credit. He is the destroyer.


MM - Yes. Jesus is responsible for the destruction that occurs whether He caused it or permitted it. Nothing happens on this sinned riddled planet without His permission. He orchestrates the outcome of our choices without violating our freedom to choose.


TE - God created a situation in which sin was inevitable. Therefore God gets the credit for the existence of sin. God is the author of sin, suffering and death.


MM - Yes. Jesus did not have to create free moral agents. It wasn't a requirement. He knew in advance that they would sin and rebel, that they would suffer and die, and that He would give His life and death to redeem them. By creating FMAs sin, suffering, and death were inevitable. Yet, it not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purposes.


TE - The reason God does not destroy the righteous is because He unleashed His wrath against His Son. So those who fulfill the conditions that God has set are spared from His unleashed wrath, because they get credit for the unleashed wrath upon His Son.


MM - Yes. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit hate sin and sinning with a perfect hatred. They are looking forward to the day when sin and sinners are eliminated in the lake of fire so that things can get back on track, so that they get on with the business of spending eternity with us without sin and death. Jesus bore the brunt of our sin debt on the cross. He was treated as we deserve so that we can be treated as He deserved.


TE - When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.


MM - Correct. The lake of fire, though, is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon the unsaved sinners. They suffer in proportion to the sins they committed. They worse the sins the more severe the suffering. Some are suffer fewer stripes, others more - depending on their sinfulness. I cannot understand how we will rejoice with the angels, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear we will.

Tom, what would nature do if Jesus were to all of a sudden stop restraining it from responding to our sinning by imploding upon itself?

You keep wording things as if nature had a mind of its own. Nature doesn't "do" anything. It would be better to ask what would happen if God were to cease his work of sustaining and protecting us. MH 416, 417 I think discusses this. (I'm going by memory, since the EGW site is still down.)

It looks like I get full marks in my summary of your position.

Correct me if I've misunderstood you, Tom, but I seem to remember you saying that nature would have imploded upon itself the instant Adam sinned had not Jesus held it in check. If that is what you believe, then why do you think nature would have all of sudden imploded just because Adam sinned? What does Adam's sinning have to with nature imploding upon itself.

Yes, you got full marks with my additional clarifying comments.