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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48378
03/24/06 10:55 AM
03/24/06 10:55 AM
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Why is a star burning out not as God planned it? When we look into space with our pathetic little telescopes we see things like a star burning out as a bad thing but can that not be just they way the universe works and the way God created it. Is it not possible that this is Gods way of creating? I don't think it has anything to do with sin, it has much to do with our limited understanding of God and how His universe operates.
Redfog
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48379
03/25/06 12:36 PM
03/25/06 12:36 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
Tom, tell me, who cursed the earth?
quote:
Genesis 3 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
quote:
Genesis 8 21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Does this mean what it appears to mean or do you wish to explain it some other way so as to have a ground cursed by God even to this day?
/Thomas
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48380
03/25/06 12:52 PM
03/25/06 12:52 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Posts: 3,965
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Is it really a good idea to spiritualise everything that happends in the physical universe? Can you see a difference between God counting and knowing every hair or bird to fall dead and God and or the devils causing every hair or bird that falls dead? Would it really be such a bad thing if say a bird that dies by freezing to death actually died by freezing to death without any divine decision about its life or death?
/Thomas
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48381
03/26/06 12:49 AM
03/26/06 12:49 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Does this mean what it appears to mean or do you wish to explain it some other way so as to have a ground cursed by God even to this day?
It means what it says, but it may not mean what you think it says. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
It doesn't say God caused the ground to be cursed. God pronounced the curse; He didn't cause it.
quote:
Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?" The Master answered, "An enemy hath done this." All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (1SDABC 1086)
God doesn't do evil. Evil is done by the evil one. God is good and does good.
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48382
03/26/06 12:57 AM
03/26/06 12:57 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Is it really a good idea to spiritualise everything that happends in the physical universe?
"Spiritualize" has different meanings. The one which seems to me to be appropriate based on the context in which you are using it is: "to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense." Assuming this to be your meaning, I think I would have to answer, "Yes." It's a good idea to understand the spiritual meaning of everything. Most of the things we have to do with involve the physical universe. It would be good for us to understand the spiritual meaning of the things which happen in our lives.
quote:
Can you see a difference between God counting and knowing every hair or bird to fall dead and God and or the devils causing every hair or bird that falls dead?
Can I see the difference between God counting and knowing every hair or bird to fall dead and or the devils causing every hair or bird to that falls dead? I must admit I laughed in reading this. Devils causing every hair or bird that falls dead? That sounds funny. I don't know what it means.
quote:
Would it really be such a bad thing if say a bird that dies by freezing to death actually died by freezing to death without any divine decision about its life or death?
It sounds like you may be misunderstanding what I wrote. Do you think I don't think birds freeze to death?
Perhaps you could quote something I wrote, and we could discuss that. I think that would be helpful.
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48383
03/26/06 04:28 AM
03/26/06 04:28 AM
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SDA
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Jesus cursed the earth. His word is power. It creates. It does not return unto Him void. He gives evil angels permission to pervert the powers of nature according to His will and word. When sin entered the picture the curse was His will.
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48384
03/26/06 05:21 AM
03/26/06 05:21 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Repeating from my previous post: It doesn't say God caused the ground to be cursed. God pronounced the curse; He didn't cause it. quote:
Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?" The Master answered, "An enemy hath done this." All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (1SDABC 1086)
God doesn't do evil. Evil is done by the evil one. God is good and does good. (End of repeated portion from previous post)
MM, isn't the SOP statement clear that it was Satan responsible for the cursing of the ground, not God? How could she have been clearer?
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48385
03/26/06 07:42 AM
03/26/06 07:42 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Genesis 8 21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
To do something again implies that one has done so before at least once. But maybe this also means that God lifted the curse pronounced in Eden, ie a decurse(?). And though I havent checked this, could it be that the text in hebrew says that God ceases the ongoing curse of the ground at that moment?
Tom wrote quote:
"Spiritualize" has different meanings. The one which seems to me to be appropriate based on the context in which you are using it is: "to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense." Assuming this to be your meaning, I think I would have to answer, "Yes." It's a good idea to understand the spiritual meaning of everything. Most of the things we have to do with involve the physical universe. It would be good for us to understand the spiritual meaning of the things which happen in our lives.
What may the spiritual meaning of the late spring we are having this year be? What about the spiritual meaning of a waterpipe that breaks, etc?
Tom wrote quote:
Can I see the difference between God counting and knowing every hair or bird to fall dead and or the devils causing every hair or bird to that falls dead? I must admit I laughed in reading this. Devils causing every hair or bird that falls dead? That sounds funny. I don't know what it means.
Jesus tells us that God Father knows the hairs on our head. Does He know this becourse he observes them or becourse He caused every one of them to grow? If He knows our hairs becourse He causes every one of them to grow, is a bald spot then Gods fault since He then ceased to cause hairs to grow on that part of the head?
Tom wrote
quote:
It sounds like you may be misunderstanding what I wrote. Do you think I don't think birds freeze to death?
quote:
Mike; Tom, as you know, I do not believe our sinning on earth has any physical effect on deep space.
TE; What about Satan's sin? It doesn't really matter who's sin is responsible for it. The fact remains that it is sin which causes these things. God did not design the stars to burn out, for example.
Mike; If anything is happening out there, which there is no way we can know for sure, then it is the result of Jesus allowing evil angels to do something to it.
TE; There is hardly anything more certain in physics then the Second Law of Thermodynamics. There is nowhere in the universe where the evidence for entropy is not seen. It's not a question of knowing or not knowing. We know.
The secound law of thermodynamics is the most sertain natural law known to man, it causes stars to burn out and things not heated to grow cold. Yet at the same time you say that God did not create it so (since a star burning forever would not be governed by the secound thermodynamic law). Birds freezing to death is usually viewed as a result of thermodynamics (they lose more heat by freezing than they gain by food). Yes it is likely that I dont understand your thoughts here.
/Thomas
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48386
03/27/06 03:11 AM
03/27/06 03:11 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
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Tom, how do you define "evil"? Poison oak, for example, causes a rash when touched, a result of the curse. But what about the glory of God? It kills people, right? My point is just because something bad happens doesn't mean it is evil. Evil is in the eyes of the beholder. What we call evil, holy angels rejoice over.
The results of the seven last plagues are considered evil by some, but not by the holy angels. Listen to what they will say about it:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
Tom, do you agree with the holy angels? Can you imagine yourself rejoicing with them? Also, do you agree with prophecy of John that holy angels are the ones pouring out the vials upon the earth and the unsaved during the seven last plagues? Or, do you believe it is evil angels doing it?
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Re: How does God destroy?
#48387
03/26/06 04:26 PM
03/26/06 04:26 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Jesus tells us that God Father knows the hairs on our head. Does He know this becourse he observes them or becourse He caused every one of them to grow? If He knows our hairs becourse He causes every one of them to grow, is a bald spot then Gods fault since He then ceased to cause hairs to grow on that part of the head? God causes all of our hairs to grow. He manages and sustains nature. There's ample Scripture on this, but I don't where to find the references as readily as an SOP one I can get quickly, so I'll cite it: quote:
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will....
It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. "He giveth snow like wool: He scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When He uttereth His voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, And He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He maketh lightnings with rain, And bringeth forth the wind out of His treasures." Psalm 147:16; Jeremiah 10:13.
It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops.
The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. (MH 416, 417)
To pick out a key point: The laws of nature are not self-acting.
The secound law of thermodynamics is the most certain natural law known to man, it causes stars to burn out and things not heated to grow cold. Yet at the same time you say that God did not create it so (since a star burning forever would not be governed by the secound thermodynamic law). Birds freezing to death is usually viewed as a result of thermodynamics (they lose more heat by freezing than they gain by food). Yes it is likely that I dont understand your thoughts here.
My thoughts on the matter are very simple. It is sin which causes death. Without sin, there is no death. The Second Law of Thermodynamics testifies of sin. God didn't design things to run down; He didn't desing things, whether animate or inamimate, to die.
Here's something I picked up from a website which explains what I'm trying to say:
quote:
The Second Law [Energy Decay] might better be called *The Sin Principle*. Why? Because the death of physical life and the decay of the universe are the direct result of SIN. That's why...
The Second Law expresses in a formal way the fact that something is intrinsically wrong with the world. Everything gets old, wears out, runs down, and finally dies. In all processes, some energy becomes degraded to low-level heat energy and can no longer be used.
I'm hesitant to cite the site, lest it be a non-allowed site, so I'll just mention that if you google "second law thermodynamics 'result of sin'" you can find it. There are many sites which bring out this principle. I don't think it's a difficult principle to see.
Regarding the curse, the quotation from the Spirit of Prophecy explains the principle clearly. I'll requote it for your convenience.
quote:
Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the Master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?" The Master answered, "An enemy hath done this." All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. (1SDABC 1086)
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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