Catching up on the thread tonight a couple of things sprang out at me that I think I will share here.

Firstly

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Redfrog, Dave, please show me in scripture where those who belong to Christ should have ANYTHING to do with magic. While you are searching for that there are a few scriptures that advise us otherwise...

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The Bible does admonish us to have nothing to do with Magic. However when explaining the magic of Gandalf et al Tolkien stated that magic was the nearest word he could find to portray the 'power' that Gandalf used. I strongly suspect that C S Lewis had the same problem in portraying the power of Aslan.

I think I mentioned that I am only just reading the 7 narnia books now as an adult but the biggest thing that impressed me was the description of the 'creation song' of Aslan, at the beginning of Narnia, in the first book.

secondly:

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Personally, I am not interested in the movie either. The books were good, but knowing Dysney and how movies loose a lot of the important (in this case Christian) parts, I think it would do more damage than good.

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I have seen the movie twice already and I was surprised at how faithful to the book the movie was, in fact the first viewing stimulate me to read the books.

Thirdly

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I think we draw the line at things we find vulgure (Batman), unrelated to the Bible (Harry Potter), and things that are not edifying. We should deffenatly exclude works that are written by people who have contempt for christianity. But for those who work hard for Christianity, I think I will follow Jesus:


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Whoever is not against us is with us.
Mark 9:40 NCV
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Amen to that brother! There are definitely things that should not appear on one's bookshelf!

Please do not forget that God can use anyone and anthing to his purposes and I know that even the bbc has mentioned the christian content of Narnia (Something they didn't do for Lord of the Rings!) Let's pray that God will use it to his Glory for I know that there will be those who will ask trhe questions about the symbolism.

Debbie I agree that the Creation song was great. That Aslan could just sing something into existence was like the Creator speaking something into being there. It made me think more about the Creation of the world.

What we Christians call miracles others would call magic.

Redfog

I posted part of this letter before, but I think the whole letter is most interesting:

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[When Laurence, a nine-year-old American boy, became concerned that he loved Aslan more than Jesus, his mother wrote to C. S. Lewis in care of Macmillan Publishing Company. Just ten days later to her surprise and delight, she received this answer to her son's questions.]

[6 may 1955]

Dear Mrs. K...,

Tell Laurence from me, with my love:

1/ Even if he was loving Aslan more than Jesus (I'll explain in a moment why he can't really be doing this) he would not be an idol-worshipper. If he was an idol-worshiper he'd be doing it on purpose, whereas he's now doing it because he can't help doing it, and trying hard not to do it. But God knows quite well how hard we find it to love Him more than anyone or anything else, and He won't be angry with us as long as we are trying. And he will help us.

2/ But Laurence can't really love Aslan more than Jesus, even if he feels that's what he is doing. For the things he loves Aslan for doing or saying are simply the things Jesus really did and said. So that when Laurence thinks he is loving Aslan, he is really loving Jesus: and perhaps loving Him more than he ever did before. Of course there is one thing Aslan has that Jesus has not - I mean, the body of a lion. Now if Laurence is bothered because he finds the lion-body seems nicer to him than the man-body, I don't think he need be bothered at all. God knows all about the way a little boy's imagination works (He made it, after all) and knows that at a certain age the idea of talking and friendly animals is very attractive. So I don't think He minds if Laurence likes the Lion-body. And anyway, Laurence will find as he grows older, that feeling (liking the lion-body better) will die away of itself, without his taking any trouble about it. So he needn't bother.

3/ If I were Laurence I'd just say in my prayers something like this: "Dear God, if the things I've been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don't like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. But if they are not bad, then please stop me from worrying about them. And help me every day to love you more in the way that really matters far more than any feelings or imaginations, by doing what you want and growing more like you." That is the sort of thing I think Laurence should say for himself; but it would be kind and Christian-like if he then added, "and if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again."

Will this help? I am terribly sorry to have caused such trouble, and would take it as a grate favor if you would write again and tell me how Laurence goes on. I shall of course have him daily in my prayers. He must be a corker of a boy: I hope you are prepared for the possibility he might turn out a saint. I daresay the saint's mothers have, in some ways, a rough time!

Yours sincerely,


C. S. Lewis

C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children

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This letter was written a year before "The Last Battle," the last of the Narnia books, was published.

[ December 17, 2005, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]

When the animated film, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," was made (1979) my mother remembers the academy in Ohio (Mt. Vernon Academy) showing it on video for the students (probably sometime late in 1980). She does not remember anyone making a large fuss about it then. Has the schema about C. S. Lewis only arisen in the last 25 years?

No matter how much we try to rationalize the situation, it stills comes back to one point...what does God's Word say. There is not a person alive that can prove from God's Word that the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day to the 1st day. Likewise, I yet to see in Holy Scripture where those who belong to Christ should have ANYTHING to do with magic of any kind or in any form.

Therefore I repeat...It matters little how many wonderful allegories the stories or movies contain. They are either acceptable to God or they are not. Magic, mystical creatures, sorcery, etc are still unacceptable to our Lord as when He first said so.

"Abstain from all appearance of evil." -1 Thessalonians 5:22

This will probably be my last post on this topic. I am in a position to judge no one, like Paul said; I am the chieftest of sinners. So a few points if I may...

Redfrog wrote:

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What we Christians call miracles others would call magic.

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There is a distinct difference between the two.

The fact that we think the books were great and the movie lived up to the original has nothing to do with the councils that we have been given. Is it not "self" that says "this thing is too good to put aside"? Is it not self that continues to walk his own way even in the midst of clear instructions from God?

Sure, the media are all saying how Christianity can be seen in the movie, however, this is the same media that tells us that Sunday is sacred and the Pope is god on earth. The Left Behind series all claim Christ, yet are filled with deception, lies, and . Are they still acceptable?

Revelation 2:9 ...and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Take a look around. Go to some of the websites that call themselves christian, look at the movies, the music videos, the speech, the dress, etc, etc. Satan taking the same poison that he has in the world, wrapping it in a christian looking package and selling it to the masses in the church. Not everything that claims to be from God is from God. The eyes of the enemy are on this church and he is seeking to weaken and destroy all that he can in anyway that he can. we MUST be careful!!
We must surrender all to our Lord and walk in obedience and submission to Him.

My friends, there is a storm coming that we can never imagine. What we do now will either prepare us to stand or to....


In Christ and with love...

--Ren

The problem with what was said is that it relies on others interpretations of what is presented. If someone really wants to know what Lewis believed and represented, Read what he had to say. In reading a book about magic that does not exist and not condemned in the Bible (There is no predicting of the future or cursed placed on people in the books) I am not partaking in magic. Nether am I interested in exploring magic. Even as a child, when my mother would read these books to me, I knew what the stories represented and had no interest in the "magic" within them. I appreciated the Christian aspect and learned more about Christ.

My opinion of the Christian aspect of the stories is in no way influenced by the media. I was interested in the Christian aspect long after, and before, the media had any cares of Narnia.

Indeed, we should all pray what Lewis himself suggested:

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Dear God, if the things I've been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don't like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. And help me every day to love you more in the way that really matters far more than any feelings or imaginations, by doing what you want and growing more like you. And if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again.

C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children

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Really I have no problem with giants:

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There were giants in the earth in those days
Genesis 6:4 KJV

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I have no problem with talking animals:

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Now the snake was the most clever of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day the snake said to the woman, "Did God really say that you must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden?" The woman answered the snake, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden. But God told us, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. You must not even touch it, or you will die.'" But the snake said to the woman, "You will not die. God knows that if you eat the fruit from that tree, you will learn about good and evil and you will be like God!"
Genesis 3:1 - 5 NCV

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I have no problem with animals that are mixed of form and strange:

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And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:5 - 7 KJV

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I have no problem with an evil entity causing a world to be cursed:

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Then God said to the man, "You listened to what your wife said, and you ate fruit from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat. "So I will put a curse on the ground, and you will have to work very hard for your food. In pain you will eat its food all the days of your life.
Genesis 3:17 NCV

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I have no problem with thinking of Jesus as a mystical ruler:

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When Jesus finished saying these things, the people were amazed at his teaching, 2because he did not teach like their teachers of the law. He taught like a person who had authority.
Matthew 7:28 - 29 NCV

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Jesus answered them, "Go tell John what you hear and see: 5 The blind can see, the crippled can walk, and people with skin diseases are healed. The deaf can hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is preached to the poor.
Matthew 11:4 - 5 NCV

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I have no problem with war and battles:

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So Moses said to the people, "Get some men ready for war. The Lord will use them to pay back the Midianites. Send to war a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel. So twelve thousand men got ready for war, a thousand men from each tribe. Moses sent those men to war; Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest was with them. He took with him the holy things and the trumpets for giving the alarm.
Numbers 31:3 - 6 NCV

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No other god has ever taken for himself one nation out of another. But the Lord your God did this for you in Egypt, right before your own eyes. He did it with tests, signs, miracles, war, and great sights, by his great power and strength.
Deuteronomy 4:34 NCV

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When you go to war against your enemies and you see horses and chariots and an army that is bigger than yours, don't be afraid of them. The Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, will be with you.
[i]Deuteronomy 20:1 NCV

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When you go to war against your enemies, the Lord will help you defeat them so that you will take them captive.
Deuteronomy 21:10 NCV

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And he sent you on a mission. He said, 'Go and destroy those evil people, the Amalekites. Make war on them until all of them are dead.'
1 Samuel 15:18 NCV

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Then there was a war in heaven. Michaeln and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
Revelation 12:7 NCV

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I do have a problem with magic, but only in the sense of it really being used, portrayed in a real imitable sense, taught to people, or forced on people. If it is used to illustrate a point, how is it different form Jesus telling a false story about people going to an ever burning hell or Abraham when they die?

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Jesus said, "There was a rich man who always dressed in the finest clothes and lived in luxury every day. And a very poor man named Lazarus, whose body was covered with sores, was laid at the rich man's gate. He wanted to eat only the small pieces of food that fell from the rich man's table. And the dogs would come and lick his sores. Later, Lazarus died, and the angels carried him to the arms of Abraham. The rich man died, too, and was buried. In the place of the dead, he was in much pain. The rich man saw Abraham far away with Lazarus at his side. He called, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering in this fire!' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember when you were alive you had the good things in life, but bad things happened to Lazarus. Now he is comforted here, and you are suffering. Besides, there is a big pit between you and us, so no one can cross over to you, and no one can leave there and come here.' The rich man said, 'Father, then please send Lazarus to my father's house. I have five brothers, and Lazarus could warn them so that they will not come to this place of pain.' But Abraham said, 'They have the law of Moses and the writings of the prophets; let them learn from them.' The rich man said, 'No, father Abraham! If someone goes to them from the dead, they would believe and change their hearts and lives.' But Abraham said to him, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not listen to someone who comes back from the dead.'"
Luke 16:19 - 31 NCV

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Is the teaching of an ever burning hell evil? Is the teaching of going to heaven or hell instantly after death evil? But Jesus used both of these to illustrate a bigger point. Is the use of magic evil? But Lewis used it to illustrate a bigger point.

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So don't listen to your false prophets, those who use magic to tell the future, those who explain dreams, the mediums, or magicians. They all tell you, 'You will not be slaves to the king of Babylon.'
Jeremiah 27:9 NCV

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Lewis did not use magic; he did not try to use magic to try and predict the future or explain dreams. He was not a medium or magician. He was merely illustrating a point in the same way Jesus was.

An interesting quote:

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Understand this: The Lord God All-Powerful will take away everything Judah and Jerusalem need -- all the food and water, the heroes and great soldiers, the judges and prophets, people who do magic and older leaders, the military leaders and government leaders, the counselors, the skilled craftsmen, and those who try to tell the future.
Isiah 3:1 - 3 NCV

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Judah and Jerusalem need people who do magic and those who try to tell the future? I sincerely doubt that.

I hope that is enough scripture for everyone. I am not trying to make anyone go against the calling of the Holy Spirit, but I am trying to show that there is a schema within Adventism on this topic. We have no place to condemn someone for doing the same thing Jesus did. We cannot say that eating clean meat, fish and drinking milk will prevent someone from receiving salvation.

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Later, the Lord again appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre. Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day. He looked up and saw three men standing near him. When Abraham saw them, he ran from his tent to meet them. He bowed facedown on the ground before them and said, "Sir, if you think well of me, please stay awhile with me, your servant. I will bring some water so all of you can wash your feet. You may rest under the tree, and I will get some bread for you so you can regain your strength. Then you may continue your journey." The three men said, "That is fine. Do as you said." Abraham hurried to the tent where Sarah was and said to her, "Hurry, prepare twenty quarts of fine flour, and make it into loaves of bread." Then Abraham ran to his herd and took one of his best calves. He gave it to a servant, who hurried to kill it and to prepare it for food. Abraham gave the three men the calf that had been cooked and milk curds and milk. While they ate, he stood under the tree near them.
Genesis 8:1 - 8 NCV

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After Jesus said this, he showed them his hands and feet. While they still could not believe it because they were amazed and happy, Jesus said to them, "Do you have any food here?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish. While the followers watched, Jesus took the fish and ate it.
Luke 24:40 - 43 NCV

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We cannot condemn people for getting food on the Sabbath:

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At that time Jesus was walking through some fields of grain on a Sabbath day. His followers were hungry, so they began to pick the grain and eat it.
Matthew 12:1 NCV

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We cannot condemn physicians working on the Sabbath:

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One Sabbath day, as Jesus was walking through some fields of grain, his followers began to pick some grain to eat. The Pharisees said to Jesus, "Why are your followers doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath day?" Jesus answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? During the time of Abiathar the high priest, David went into God's house and ate the holy bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And David also gave some of the bread to those who were with him." Then Jesus said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath day was made to help people; they were not made to be ruled by the Sabbath day. So then, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day."
Mark 2:23 – 28 NCV

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And we cannot condemn people for making an illustration like Jesus did in His parable and C. S. Lewis did in his chronicles of Narnia.

And because of the season, here is a Christmas thought from C. S. Lewis

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The Son of God became a man to enable men to become the sons of God.
C. S. Lewis on Christmas

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[ December 18, 2005, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hoover ]

Borrowed this from a friend...

"As satan used the scriptures when he tried to tempt Jesus, he today trys to deceive men into thinking that spiritualism is not spiritualism, but rather a good and even needed thing for Christians to read...Spiritual even?"


--Ren

Ah, so scripture is not even enough for you As the scriptures say:

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You have eyes, but you don't really see. You have ears, but you don't really listen.
Mark 8:18 NCV

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It is strange that whenever scripture does not agree with our schema, we say that the scripture is not being used the right way. If C. S. Lewis is evil for making an illustration, Jesus must too be evil for making an illustration. Is that the position we wish to take? If you disagree with giants, talking animals, animals that are of mixed form, evil causing a world to be cursed, the Son of God having powers that cannot be of men, or illustrations that use bad things to show good, then you disagree with the Bible and the Christian faith. Each one of those things is present in the scriptures, so what is it to be?

I guess spiritualism is needed as much as the teaching of an ever burning hell and the teaching of spirits going to heaven or hell instantly at death.

But then spiritualism is not present, by the nearest stretch of the imagination, in the Chronicles of Narnia. It is just more of the schema that Adventists have. If you are looking for spiritualism, look at the new age section of any book store. That stuff is real, and people experience and dabble in it, and I know that they were not led there by Narnia.

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Whoever looks for good will find kindness, but whoever looks for evil will find trouble
Proverbs 11:27 NCV

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My suspicion here is that though noone has said it out loud, the real problem is that Lewis was angelican and surely no good thing can come out of another church than SDA... Will have to see if this is going to be confirmed or denied.

/Thomas