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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52658
03/16/04 04:51 PM
03/16/04 04:51 PM
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quote:
By the way, Lobo, in what way is my question misleading?
You stated that Romans 6:14 is used to say that the OT law is annulled. Now that I look at that again it seems that you were indicating that others use this text to support the annulled viewpoint. So I guess your question is not misleading because you were just the messenger of those who believe something other that what Rom 6:14 really states.
quote:
And why do you avoid the question by going on to another text?
Please re-read my post again. I answered the question and stated that Rom 6:14 does not annul God’s law. But I also explained from Paul’s own writing what he meant by “not under the law”. So how is that avoiding the question?
quote:
That text about the Gentiles seems clear enough to me. Why isn't it clear enough to you?
Are you talking about Romans 2:8-15? If so, my issue would be how gentiles “who do not have the law” would “by nature” or instinctively know about the sabbath or other items of the OT law to just follow them without any instruction?
How would they just know the 6 plus laws that govern the sabbath without someone telling them? The fact is that they wouldn’t. So Paul is not talking about the OT law. He is talking about the Law that Satan and Adam broke. The law that was already convicting man of sin thousands of years before the OT law was given. This is of course God eternal moral law, which was in existence forever. But the OT law was “added”.
“12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.” Rom 5
So Paul states here that Adam sinned WITHOUT breaking a command of the OT law. Why? Because it had not been given; “before the law was given”.
So if the OT law was not in effect, what law did Adam break? God’s eternal moral law.
Paul goes on to say that the OT law was again not in place forever, but it was “added”:
“20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20
So being added, and not being the law Adam broke, means the OT law cannot be God’s eternal moral law.
So it is God’s eternal moral law that Gentiles can understand by nature and do instinctively, not the OT law.
“15"Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." Acts 14
So nature was God’s “testimony” or witness. And this is how Gentiles could know there is a God and “by nature” do what the eternal moral law required. And as I have demonstrated above, the eternal moral law did not contain the sabbath. The sabbath was “made” (Mark 2:27) and/or “added” (Rom 5:20).
quote:
Why won't you let God's Word speak to your heart?
Why won't you let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth?
Why are you judging me Daryl?
“16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Col 2
I don’t let anyone judge me in regards to sabbaths, as Paul indicates. You should think about that.
quote:
Anyway, here is what under the law really means.
Daryl, that statement, and your judgmental statements above do not sound like you are searching for truth?
I have presented my position and backed it all up with direct biblical support, which you have not addressed with like scripture. Do you think there may be a problem with a doctrine that can only be supported by non-biblical sources?
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52659
03/16/04 05:00 PM
03/16/04 05:00 PM
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Lobo,
I think you need to ascertain whether or not you backed it up by your own between the lines interpretations.
It may be that it is you who are reading between the lines than it is me, or some of the other ones posting here.
Those texts about the Gentiles seemed clear to me without reading between the lines.
As far as judging others goes, I guess we will really let the Son of God determine that. All the dirty laundry will come up out of the wash on Judgement Day, therefore, I will retract my judgemental statements and leave it to the Son of God to properly do that.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52660
03/16/04 05:19 PM
03/16/04 05:19 PM
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First Daryl, thank you and I appreciate your retraction.
Next, if I’m reading between the lines, then how would you explain gentiles, “who do not have the law”, doing “by nature” what is required by the law because or their hearts? How would they know?
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52661
03/16/04 05:32 PM
03/16/04 05:32 PM
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Romans 2:15 which I also quoted there answers that question, for the law of God was written in those Gentiles hearts, just as He wishes them to be written in our hearts today. quote:
Romans 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52662
03/16/04 10:23 PM
03/16/04 10:23 PM
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quote:
Romans 2:15 which I also quoted there answers that question, for the law of God was written in those Gentiles hearts, just as He wishes them to be written in our hearts today.
Daryl, how is that done? How can these gentiles “WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW” know about the sabbath and have that in their heart? THAT is my question.
Romans 2
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
So again, how can a gentile who does not have the OT law, which means does not know about it’s requirements, have those requirements “by nature” in their hearts?
Please stop being evasive and answer this question please.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52663
03/16/04 10:55 PM
03/16/04 10:55 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I think there are 3 or 4 threads that have dealt with this already Lobo.. You can use the search feature for this..
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52664
03/16/04 11:30 PM
03/16/04 11:30 PM
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Thanks Will, that is a cop out. I have never just dismissed someone and told them to go read something else. I always answer the question or address the issue. So either you are being rude or you just can’t answer the issue.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52665
03/17/04 01:45 AM
03/17/04 01:45 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Lobo,
Nope.. just use some common sense and search after all you are "searching" for truth right? so let your fingers do the walking.. No need to falsely accuse or make slanderous accusations. Take a deep breath, click the link labelled "Search" and enter your query.. A squirrel can figure that out.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52666
03/17/04 02:05 PM
03/17/04 02:05 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, I agree that "not under the law" means one of two things. First, we are not obligated to obey the law in own strength. Second, we are not under the condemnation of the law if we are in covenant relationship with Jesus. And the reason we are not under condemnation is because Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, empowers us to live harmony with the law.
The law only condemns law breakers. We cannot obey the law in our own strength, so the law condemns us as law breakers. Actually, the law cannot condemn anyone, only God can do that, but He bases His condemnation on whether we obey or disobey the law. The cannot save us or kill us. Only God saves or kills in judgment.
The Gentiles in Rom 2:13-15 who naturally obey the law of God, though they were ignorant of the law, did not keep the first four commandments. It's impoosible to obey the first four if you've never heard about them. But if innocent unbelievers (i.e. people who have never heard of Jesus) conscientiously obey the last six then God counts that as obeying all ten.
I believe God is able to count them as saved because they demonstrate a willingness to do what is morally right and to resist what is morally wrong. They would excercise the same loyalty if they know about the true God and would obey the first four as readily as the last six. They are saved based one the choices they would have made if they knew all truth.
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Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52667
03/17/04 02:24 PM
03/17/04 02:24 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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I have to agree with you Mike; well and clearly put.
However, I am sure we will both get heaps of flak over it, starting with our lupine wrangler. Oh well!
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