Lobo, thanx for correcting my misunderstanding of what you posted about Jesus obeying the OT law perfectly. After rereading your post I see where you did indeed say just that. And I agree with you that Jesus never violated any of the OT laws. The Jewish leaders accused Him of sabbath breaking but in reality they were wrong. Jesus may not have kept it according to their perversion of it but kept the sabbath in accordance with God's law.

You're right, once we are familiar with the requirements of the law it isn't as necessary to read them over and over again to know what is expected of us. "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:25. Yes, we are led of the Spirit, and taught by Him. But He will never lead us or teach us contrary to the law.

John
16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.

A teacher will always be a teacher. Even though I am no longer setting at the feet of my first grade teacher I am still learning lessons from her today. Wisdom never stops educating us. So too the ten commandments never stop teaching us. It would be a mistake to forget what the law teaches. "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." James 1:23, 24.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying we should be so law focused that we cannot keep our eyes on Jesus. But Jesus and the law are not mortal enemies. The law does not, in and of itself, threaten our relationship to Jesus. Yes, we can lose sight of Jesus if we become too legalistic, but we cannot blame it on the law. The fault is our own.

Gentiles who obey the law of God naturally, without knowledge of it, are not worshipping the true God intelligently. The passage in Rom 2:13-15 is saying when they obey their conscience God counts this as law keeping. But they are not serving God in exactly the same way genuine Christians do.

Your assumption that the ten commandments are morally deficient implicates God. You said God bowed to the low morals of post-slavery Judaism and gave them a law that met them where they were. But in so saying you are blaming God for the Jews who never rose above this supposedly low level law. How can anybody blame them for rising no higher than the low standard God gave them? The low standard God gave them is to blame which means their low morals is God's fault.

Please show me in Bible where God said, “You can get divorced for any reason whatsoever.” And please don’t try to use Deut 24:1-4 to prove God sanctioned such an idea. That’s not what that passage is saying. The law of God is one law – not ten. If we break one commandment we break all of them. See James 2:10. There isn’t anything Jesus said about law keeping that wasn’t already inherent in the ten commandments. And please show me where I have reduced anything commanded in the Word of God to mere symbolism. I believe everything God commanded the Jews in the OT can be obeyed if not in particular at least in principle in the NT. Not one of the ten commandments in any way pre-figured the first advent of Christ.

I agree with you that Jesus fulfilled everything that predicted His life and death and resurrection after the fact. But nowhere in the Bible does it say the ten commandments were prophecies that would be fulfilled and abolished when Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. Please explain why you think Jesus’ earthly ministry made of none effect – Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Lobo, I hate to do this to you again, but I'm tired. I need a break. I know you do not believe born again believers are at liberty to sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. You have made it abundantly clear that truly converted Christians will live in harmony with the principles of God's eternal moral law of love. You believe the ten commandments are abolished once we are born again, which means one thing in your mind - the sabbath has been abolished.

Believers live harmony with the other nine, but only unbelievers are guilty of breaking the sabbath. But once they are born again they are no longer guilty of breaking the sabbath. Your ideas do not make sense to me, but each person is individually accountable to God in judgment. May God bless us as we continue to study His word and seek to serve Him according to His will.

I'd look at my wife and the picture of her too. You'd throw the picture away.

Mike.

You wrote:

Believers live harmony with the other nine, but only unbelievers are guilty of breaking the sabbath. But once they are born again they are no longer guilty of breaking the sabbath. Your ideas do not make sense to me, but each person is individually accountable to God in judgment. May God bless us as we continue to study His word and seek to serve Him according to His will.

Unquote.

Lobo has ideas that I see is in harmony with the Gospel (in fact that is my ideas too), but what you said above make sense too.

I my self now think, is the Ten Commandments really for us Gentile’s believers?

Are we asked and commanded to keep and obey the Ten Commandments?

Are we automatically fall under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction once we become a believer?

Are we lost if we didn’t believe that what is written on stone tablets is still in effect?

Do we really lost our perspective of what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil, what sin is, if we only rely on our faith in Christ and surrender our will to the Spirit?

Is it really important to be under the Ten Commandments jurisdiction and do what is required even it doesn’t save us neither condemn us?

At last, is the Sabbath keeping such an important issue that by neglecting it because we believe that it is only for the Jews and not for us, we would remain constantly under condemnation?

In His love

James S

That's for you to decide James.. The Bible is very clear on what God has inspired the writers to write about.
Some people use verses in Scripture to condemn the Bible such as is the case where homosexuals claim that the Bible is hate literature yet God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve. Some people chose to use it where it is convenient others do not. I think Mike has spent a large amount of time studying the topics of the Sabbath,commendments,grace etc with you, and you fully agreed, but it appears you have a change in heart. It is not a change in what Scripture indicates, but as with all of us God has given us a choice.

God Bless,
Will

This talk about "all we need is the Spirit, and He will show us what's right" -- if that's true, why did God give us any Scripture at all? Why the need for any written Word?

Because God knows that with men "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9.

Men can *think* they're following the promptings of the Spirit of God, when they're actually following Satan. It's everywhere we look these days, and all through history.

"Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." John 16:2

21 "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

The written Word of God, including the law He wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, work together with the convictions and guidance of the Spirit. All are necessary. That's why God gave them all. We ignore His gifts and revelations at our eternal peril.

Lobo, I'm sorry if it seems as though I am running away from one of your so-called irrefutable points. But please rest assured that isn't the case at all. I have answered your objections over and over again, using both the Bible and the SOP, but you believe so firmly Jesus' death abolished the ten commandments that there is nothing more we can talk about regarding this topic.

You continue to accuse me of making the law more important than my relationship with Jesus. Please believe me, that isn't the case at all. Just because I believe Jesus wrote the law in my heart does not mean I believe they are more important than Jesus Himself.

The reason sabbath keeping has become a focus in this study is because of all the commandments that's the only one you teach and believe has been abolished and is no longer required. If you were advocating one of the other commandments has been abolished I would defend that one too. But in reality we all agree that the other nine cannot be ignored or rejected without incurring the wrath of God.

James, whatever we believe about the jurisdiction of the ten commandments doesn't matter so long as we are in relationship with Jesus. The law cannot condemn us while we are abiding in Christ. In fact, the law is merely a witness and testifies whether or not we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. If we live in harmony with the loving principles of God's law we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness. The only way we can do this is if we are connected to Christ.

Our relationship to Jesus has nothing to do with race, creed, gender or nationality. His promises apply to everyone. And they work the same for all of us - whether Jew or Gentile. "For God is no respector of persons." He doesn't save Jews one way and Gentiles another way. We are all saved in the same way - by faith in Jesus. Faith that works by love and purifies the soul works the same way for everyone. Righteousness by faith is righteousness by faith. Plain and simple.

God empowers everyone to live in harmony with the principles of His law in the same way. He writes the same law on the hearts of everyone who is born again and walks in the Spirit and mind of the new man. There is one standard of right and wrong, one Example of obedience and righteousness. Both the law and the Lord witness and testify to the same standard of truth.

Love does not eliminate the law, rather love fulfills the law perfectly - including the sabbath. Without the love of God we cannot fulfill the law of God. Like faith and works, love and law are inseparable.

Romans
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians
5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John
4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

James
4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Romans
13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.