|
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,218
Members1,326
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
8 registered members (Daryl, Karen Y, dedication, daylily, TheophilusOne, 3 invisible),
2,454
guests, and 12
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52708
03/31/04 05:39 PM
03/31/04 05:39 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, I can appreciate the struggle you are experiencing as you wrestle with new light. Many of God's children have gone through the same thing. You are in my prayers.
You ask a very good question. Thank you. Does God require the Jews and Gentiles to obey different laws and standards? I believe it is obvious in the Bible that God does indeed have different expectations of Jews and Gentiles (or unbelievers) and Christians. In judgment He will base our eternal destiny on the light we received and/or rejected. Heaven and the New Earth will be full of people who never heard the name of Jesus.
However, I do not believe God's eternal law of love has been changed since the death of Jesus. The law is the same both sides of the cross. In the law is expressed God's ultimate will for mankind - irrespective of race and religion. God is no respector of persons. Our happiness and peace of mind are linked to how we relate to the law.
If we live in harmony with sin we are miserable. Lawbreaking is the root cause of unhappiness whether we realize it or not. Please don't over look this point. We were created to experience peace and happiness living in harmony with God's law of love. Any other way of living results in unhappiness and discontentment. We sense a void or emptiness when we sin. And we suffer these things whether or not we understand why.
Ignorance cannot protect us from the results of sinning. If it were possible to sin without suffering the consequences of sin then it would prove that Satan's accusations about God are right. But the results of sin are not arbitrary or selective. They are based on natural law. We simply were not designed to sin with impunity. Like a diesel engine was not designed to run on gasoline so too we were not engineered to run on sin. Sin is the cause of all unhappiness and unrest - and it doesn't matter if we are sinning out of ignorance.
Nine out of ten commandments clearly agree with God's eternal law of love. None of us here disagree with this conclusion. If we knowingly or unknowingly make choices contrary to anyone of these nine commadments we will suffer the consequences of our choices. It's a natural law we cannot escape or evade.
True, we cannot obey the law of God without the grace of God. In order to obey any of God's law, beginning immediately after the fall, mankind has had to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. And not any ordinary kind of faith. The type of faith that enables us to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and enjoy obedience is faith that works by love and purifies the soul.
The faith that makes it possible for us to live in harmony with one of the commadments is the same faith that enables us to live in harmony with all of them. The faith by which we obey the first commandment is the same faith that enables us to obey the fifth and so on. Not one ounce of obedience we enjoy in the Holy Spirit is possible without Him. None of it has anything to do with our unaided abilities.
The faith that enables us to resist even the smallest temptation is the same faith that empowers us to resist all temptations. God has promised He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. Thus obedience is not impossible. In Christ, by the grace of God, we may enjoy the fruits of obedience all the time.
Sabbath keeping is the same thing. it doesn't depend on our unaided abilitites. Whether or not we obey or disobey the sabbath depends on if we are connected to Christ. There is no such thing as partial sabbath keeping. We either keep it perfectly or we are guilty of breaking it. Again, it doesn't depend on our strengths of weaknesses.
If you discover that God desires to empower you to live in harmony with all ten of his commandments then you need not worry about whether you can keep the sabbath perfectly or not. It doesn't depend on you alone. God will empower you to obey the sabbath the same as the other nine commandments. You cannot obey the sabbath or any of the commandments without the Holy Spirit. Obeying the sabbath perfectly is a gift the same as any other form of obedience.
God offers this kind of power to both Jews and Gentiles. The same power is rich unto all who believe.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52709
03/31/04 06:32 PM
03/31/04 06:32 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi Lobo, What came to mind immediately was that the New Testament is the shedding of the blood of Christ for the remission of sins. quote:
Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The Old Testament of Jesus Christ was the remission of sins by the sacrifice of goats, sheep, doves, and if you were really super poor some grain was acceptable as well.
The atonement of sins in the Old Testament was mediated by the High Priest, and in the New Testament we have a mediator and High Priest interceding on our behalf and reconciling us to God through His blood and this is Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52710
03/31/04 10:26 PM
03/31/04 10:26 PM
|
|
|
quote:
Nine out of ten commandments clearly agree with God's eternal law of love. None of us here disagree with this conclusion. If we knowingly or unknowingly make choices contrary to anyone of these nine commadments we will suffer the consequences of our choices. It's a natural law we cannot escape or evade.
I agree Mike, but would also add that after the cross it is the precepts behind these laws given to Israel that we are really held accountable to, as Paul states, “not the letter but the spirit” of the law. So the specifics of each law as written is really not as important as the intent behind them, which is love, as Mike mentioned.
The reason I say this is because our world is different than it was when those laws were given. We have different moral issues that are not specifically addressed in those laws as written. So if we adhere to them strictly we could still be violating a moral law. A better approach is to look at them from a global moral perspective and determine if our actions are out of love for man or God. If they are then they are consistent with God’s moral law. If not, then they are in violation of that law.
This is why I have stated in the past that the OT law is morally remedial, because it is a specific list, which will always take a back seat to moral precepts or concepts, which get to the heart of any issue and cannot be manipulated like a specific list can be.
quote:
True, we cannot obey the law of God without the grace of God. In order to obey any of God's law, beginning immediately after the fall, mankind has had to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. And not any ordinary kind of faith. The type of faith that enables us to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and enjoy obedience is faith that works by love and purifies the soul.
The faith that makes it possible for us to live in harmony with one of the commadments is the same faith that enables us to live in harmony with all of them. The faith by which we obey the first commandment is the same faith that enables us to obey the fifth and so on. Not one ounce of obedience we enjoy in the Holy Spirit is possible without Him. None of it has anything to do with our unaided abilities.
True! But, we are not saved by these actions and they do not win us any points with God. Following the spirit and the resulting change in heart and mind is a natural process that is the result of our faith. Since Jesus has already kept the law perfectly, it is not the goal of the spirit to have us repeat what Jesus did, because then we would not need him. No, the goal of our faith is the relationship in and of itself. The side-effects of the relationship are secondary and deferent from person to person depending on their own spiritual walk.
Remember, what does Jesus say to the lost at the end? “I don’t know you”. So knowing Jesus through his spirit is what it is all about and the goal in and of itself. Sin and the law are secondary.
quote:
The faith that enables us to resist even the smallest temptation is the same faith that empowers us to resist all temptations. God has promised He will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist it unto His honor and glory. Thus obedience is not impossible. In Christ, by the grace of God, we may enjoy the fruits of obedience all the time.
I agree again. However, again, the goal is not to overcome any particular sin, but to deepen the relationship. We don’t need to overcome what Jesus has already beaten. So the sin issue really is one of focus; do I take my eyes off the relationship and do my own thing, or do I keep that focus and move forward in faith. Also note that you can take your eyes of Jesus to focus on beating sin. So focusing on your sin can also be a distraction from your relationship with Jesus.
So again, the goal is to strengthen the relationship and faith, not that sin. In fact, we give sin way to much attention. It has already been defeated! We don’t need to fight a battle that has already been won!
quote:
Sabbath keeping is the same thing. it doesn't depend on our unaided abilitites. Whether or not we obey or disobey the sabbath depends on if we are connected to Christ. There is no such thing as partial sabbath keeping. We either keep it perfectly or we are guilty of breaking it. Again, it doesn't depend on our strengths of weaknesses.
And of course I disagree with this as the sabbath doesn’t meet the biblical criteria to be a moral law. Let me explain. None of the other 9 laws had to be made for man. They already existed in some form. For example, killing someone has always been immoral even before the world was created. So that law would apply to angels and other created beings for all times. But Jesus stated the sabbath was “made”. That fact means it did not exist before that time. And if it didn’t exist before that time it cannot be an eternal moral law. In addition, outside of mankind or creation the sabbath has no meaning.
So the sabbath was a created law for Israel, and Mike believes for man. But in either case, it was made and was not always in existence, which means it cannot be an eternal moral law of God’s like the other 9.
quote:
If you discover that God desires to empower you to live in harmony with all ten of his commandments then you need not worry about whether you can keep the sabbath perfectly or not. It doesn't depend on you alone. God will empower you to obey the sabbath the same as the other nine commandments. You cannot obey the sabbath or any of the commandments without the Holy Spirit. Obeying the sabbath perfectly is a gift the same as any other form of obedience.
I agree with that also James. If you are truly led by the spirit to follow the sabbath you need to go where the spirit leads.
Will, yes the sacrificial system was also part of the mosaic covenant law and stopped with Jesus ascending to the temple in heaven with his own blood to be our sacrifice. He now functions as the high priest for new believers to receive forgiveness and grace. It is very beautiful if you think about it.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52711
03/31/04 11:38 PM
03/31/04 11:38 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Lobo, thank you for that well thought out post. I very much appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts. It makes studying the Bible with you a pleasure. Again, thank you.
You raised an interesting point about whether or not the ten commandments are limited. But are you sure modern immorality is not covered by them? Love is the principle of all the laws of God. What can we possibly think, do or say today that is not covered by the ten commandments? Please list some specific examples we can study together. Thank you.
Matthew
22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Lobo wrote – “True! But, we are not saved by these actions and they do not win us any points with God.”
I’ve noticed you mention this often whenever something is said about the Holy Spirit empowering us to experience the joy of obedience, so please help me out here. What did I write in my last post that gave you the impression I believe our works earn or merit salvation. The reason why I’m asking for your help on this issue is because I desperately do not want to leave people with the idea I believe such a lie. Thank you.
Lobo wrote – “Since Jesus has already kept the law perfectly, it is not the goal of the spirit to have us repeat what Jesus did, because then we would not need him.”
You also mention this point regularly. But I’ve never quite understood it. Please help me here too. Are you saying the Holy Spirit is incapable of empowering us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law? If not, why not? Is sinful behaviour excusable? Is so, why so? Sinning is the cause of all unrest and unhappiness. Are we doomed to a life of sinning? If so, why so?
Where in the Bible does it say we cannot cease sinning? I like what you wrote about sin being already defeated and keeping our eyes on Jesus. But why do you also insist we cannot cease from sinning? Are you also saying we cannot keep our eyes on Jesus consistently? Is it possible to stay connected to Jesus every time we are tempted? Or, is taking our eyes off Jesus inevitable?
Your argument that the sabbath commandment isn’t a moral law baffles me. Are you sure this is true? If God commands us to do something why wouldn’t it be considered a moral obligation? Where in the eternal moral law of love is anything commanded? The requirement to love God and man equally did not come into existence until after man was created. Yes, to love God has existed from eternity, but what about the part where we must love man too?
You mentioned that the sabbath commandment was the only one of nine that did not exist before the creation of mankind. Are you sure? What about the 5th and 7th? Those seem to be specific to the human race. And what about the fact if we break one we break them all? How is that possible?
I realize I asked a lot of questions just now, but thank you in advance for answering them. God bless.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52712
04/01/04 01:26 PM
04/01/04 01:26 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike & Lobo.
Many thanks for both of your posts, I really enjoy reading it even I have such a little time to study it deeper. It seems to me both of you are right, the only way to decide which is truth is to compare it with the bible and be led by the Spirit. I must really pray deep and spare more time to study this.
Now, I want to ask you Mike, what you think of ‘the SIGN OF THE BEAST”?
Is it a theology or doctrine or is it something else? How are people marked with this sign?
Once I believed it is the observation to the 1st day of the week, later I think is it the observation to the 7th day of the week, now I think it is a belief that believers are qualified for heaven when they obey the law perfectly (righteousness by works).
Thanks for the reply.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52713
04/01/04 04:46 PM
04/01/04 04:46 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
James,
Naturally no one gets to heaven by working his\her way there. Where do you get that idea from?
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52714
04/01/04 05:12 PM
04/01/04 05:12 PM
|
|
|
quote:
You raised an interesting point about whether or not the ten commandments are limited. But are you sure modern immorality is not covered by them? Love is the principle of all the laws of God. What can we possibly think, do or say today that is not covered by the ten commandments? Please list some specific examples we can study together. Thank you.
Mike, is abortion ok under the ten C’s? Does it cover something that is not born yet? Is that technically a life yet?
You see, when you say “cover” you really mean in principle. But when I say cover I mean as LITERAL written. So AS WRITTEN I believe the ten C’s are too limited. But you are correct, if we use the concepts they are based on we can cover everything.
So if we can and do use the precepts, what do we need the specific limited law for anyway if we are not using them are written?
quote:
I’ve noticed you mention this often whenever something is said about the Holy Spirit empowering us to experience the joy of obedience, so please help me out here. What did I write in my last post that gave you the impression I believe our works earn or merit salvation. The reason why I’m asking for your help on this issue is because I desperately do not want to leave people with the idea I believe such a lie. Thank you.
It was just the fact that you didn’t clarify you statement about following God’s law with the fact that it will never save us. I think when discussing the law we have to make that point because humans are all to ready to try and work their way into heaven. It was and has been an issue for every person who has ever come to know the truth of salvation by faith.
quote:
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is incapable of empowering us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law? If not, why not? Is sinful behaviour excusable? Is so, why so? Sinning is the cause of all unrest and unhappiness. Are we doomed to a life of sinning? If so, why so?
No, it is capable, it’s just not the goal. It’s one of focus. If you focus on beating your sin or just commit sin, what are you doing? Looking at sin and not at Jesus. You can’t look at your sin and Jesus at the same time.
So it is not that the spirit can’t leads us into a sinless position. It’s that that should not be our goal or focus. If it is than we are not focusing on the relationship.
Make sense?
quote:
Your argument that the sabbath commandment isn’t a moral law baffles me. Are you sure this is true? If God commands us to do something why wouldn’t it be considered a moral obligation? Where in the eternal moral law of love is anything commanded? The requirement to love God and man equally did not come into existence until after man was created. Yes, to love God has existed from eternity, but what about the part where we must love man too?
The sabbath was a random day chosen by God. No moral meaning in and of itself. This is not true for the other commandments. They all relate to concepts of love. Sure we can say God wants us to keep the sabbath so we show love for him by doing that. But, that meaning was implied to the day and not an inherent quality of that day. In other words, it is symbolic. The entire meaning behind the sabbath is symbolic. What is symbolic about the other 9 commandments? Is it symbolic to not kill someone? No!
So the morality of the sabbath was “added” to the day and is symbolic. But the morality of the other 9 is inherent to them and literal.
Ps – Good luck James! Follow the holy spirit and you can’t go wrong!
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52715
04/01/04 07:22 PM
04/01/04 07:22 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, I agree with your new observations regarding the mark of the beast. It symbolizes people who are attempting to earn salvation and a place in heaven through self-righteous works and by obeying the law outside a saving relationship with Jesus. Going along with the Sunday Laws during the final crisis is the epitome of righteousness by works. The only way we can truly experience the joy of Spirit-powered obedience is by walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. We must stay connected to Jesus at all times.
But even our Spirit-powered good works do not earn us a place in heaven. What Jesus accomplished for us on the cross is the only thing that counts toward our salvation. We cannot work our way to heaven, but none of us will be there if we refuse to allow heaven to work its way in us. If we cling to any known sin, if we refuse to give it up and allow the Holy Spirit to fill us with the fruits of the Spirit, then our choices will surely disqaulify us to sit with Christ in heavenly places.
2 Thessalonians
1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52716
04/01/04 07:50 PM
04/01/04 07:50 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Lobo, I believe the ten commandments forbid all forms of murder - including murderous thoughts and feelings. Is abortion murder? Absolutely. What if Mary had gotten an abortion? Yes, in principle, if not in detail, the ten commandments accommodate every possible form of sin. This doesn't mean we are at liberty to disregard the details. On the contrary, the details make it possible to apply the underlying principles to situations not specifically named.
I agree with you that we should not be sin centered or even focused on righteousness. Jesus must be the center of our focus at all times. And I also agree with you that Holy Spirit is more than capable of empowering us to cease sinning. But I disagree you that He refuses to do it. It doesn't make sense that the Holy Spirit is able to set us free but chooses not to. I can imagine the Devil having a heyday with that idea.
I don't feel like you adequately addressed the moral implications of the sabbath commandment or the fifth and seventh commandments. None of them existed before the creation of mankind, and therefore were not originally a part of God's eternal moral law of love. According to what you said earlier that disqualifies them as commandments Gentiles after the cross are obligated to obey. Will you please elaborate on this point. Thank you.
Also, you didn't mention anything about God commanding something as being a legitimate moral requirement. What do you think? One more thing. You said God arbitrarily chose the seventh day of creation to symbolize sabbath rest. Are you sure? What is so symbolic about resting on the seventh-day of the week? Will you please explain the following scriptures:
Genesis
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus
20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
|
|
|
Re: Does God's Grace Annul His Law?
#52717
04/02/04 04:44 PM
04/02/04 04:44 PM
|
|
|
quote:
Lobo, I believe the ten commandments forbid all forms of murder - including murderous thoughts and feelings. Is abortion murder? Absolutely. What if Mary had gotten an abortion? Yes, in principle, if not in detail, the ten commandments accommodate every possible form of sin. This doesn't mean we are at liberty to disregard the details. On the contrary, the details make it possible to apply the underlying principles to situations not specifically named.
Ok Mike, you are going to have to prove that idea. Show me where the Ten C’s state that abortion is murder? Note, to do that it first has to show that an unborn baby is technically alive and human.
Next, show me where it states thoughts or feelings convict as well.
You don’t seem to understand Mike that you are implying these ideas to the text that are NOT literal stated or written.
So if I went with EXACTLY what is written I would not see anything about thoughts and nothing about abortion.
You say disregard the details, but the details you speak of are NOT written. These are details YOU are implying. They are not written.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Not written, not there!
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
