Hi, I’m back.

I like to continue this discussion to learn more about the ‘new light” shed to me thanks to Mike Lowe who could understand my view and had brought the “missing link” and put it all together again in the right path.

Mike.

In the past when I still held to my view, there is one verse that keep nagging me but I tried to accept it the way I want, not the way God’s want.

Romans 3:31 – Shall we abolish the law because of faith? No, we upheld the law!

Now, I understood this message, that a faithful believer would live by his faith and walks after the Spirit, he would then bear fruits of the Spirit, which is love as the fulfillment of the law.

So, our faith doesn’t abolish the law, on the contrary, our faith would expressed it selves in deeds that are in harmony with the law, the whole law, including the 4th commandment.

But a faithful believer is not under the law, which means he is not under the obligation and responsibility whatsoever to keep and observe the law, for if he is, the law would only become a means of condemnation for him (Romans 6:23).

Obedience to the law of God never become an indication or measurement that a believer is saved, the only measurement of salvation is that a believer has the love of God that ruled his heart and expressed it selves in deeds that are in harmony with the law, which is a proof that this believer lives with faith and walks after the Spirit.

Many believers have shown deeds that are in harmony with the law because they had tried their best to keep and observe it, they had tried their best not to involve with sin, but this doesn’t indicate that they are saved. When they put the law above them and come under its obligation, they had made the law a parallel way to heaven and Christ becomes number 2.

What did he say to them who made him a 2nd priority? You knew the answer!

Whatever is not of faith is sin! Which means that only by living in faith and walks after the Spirit we would become righteous and fit for heaven. The other way is to live by the flesh, including placing ourselves under the law, under the obligation that we should keep and observe the law.

Therefore, I think, that by his death on the cross, Christ had abolish the law as a means of salvation, which in the past was his order to men (Leviticus 18:4,5). The cross was the limit of the existence and jurisdiction of the law over men as a means of salvation and after the cross it serves only as a means of condemnation. It is still there, but it stands only as a reminder for those who break it that they had sinned and that the wage of sin is death. But it no longer stands as a standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven, for when it is, Christ becomes of no effect.

Love that seeks no self becomes the standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven, for it is a proof that a man was lead by the Spirit.

Once, the law was a standard of righteousness and fitness for heaven; “The man who keeps it will live.” But no man was found righteous before the law, for indeed it was not designated to suit sinful man, born in sin. Only the Son of Man was found righteous and perfect in his obedience his whole life, and to him, was awarded resurrection unto eternal life even he died on the cross. The law was given to justify God’s action in the past in killing men that they deserve to die because they could not fulfill the demands of the law and to justify Christ for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law and fulfill it demands, in order he may become our sin redeemer and savior.

So, I think, it is time to preached to the world that God had saved us through Christ and that he had given us his Spirit to maintain what he had given us in Christ, instead of preaching to the world that they must keep and observe the 7th day Sabbath, otherwise they will lost.

What do you think?

In His love

James S.

James, welcome back. Absolutely, we are not saved because we obey the law. Rather, we are able to obey the law because we are saved. We cannot work our way to heaven, but we can and must allow heaven to work its way in us.

But no amount of law keeping is going to atone for the sins we committed before we experienced the miracle of rebirth. That's what Paul means in his epistles. We cannot atone for our past sins by obeying the law. Not even Spirit-powered good works can make up for past sins.

Only the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ can atone for past sins. That's righteousness by faith. In other words, God pardons our past sins when we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour, and we are regarded as sinless, as if we never sinned.

I haven't read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in order to atone for their past sins. Atonement for past sins was always based on faith in the blood of the Lamb. It's the same today.

Nor have I read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in their own unaided strength in order to earn or merit salvation. Obedience has always been the fruit of faith, the same as it is today.

Yes, there were Jews who believed they had to earn their salvation by obeying the law, but their confused ideas do not represent the truth as it is in Jesus.

We are still required to obey the law, not by works of self-righteousness, but by faith that works by love and purifies the soul. The law of God defines real holiness and righteousness, and it points to Jesus as the source of success and obedience.

But the law cannot empower us to obey the law. Only Jesus can empower us to live in harmony with the loving principles of the law. And, so long as we abide in Jesus, so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

Ephesians
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Mike, thanks for reply.

You wrote:

I haven't read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in order to atone for their past sins. Atonement for past sins was always based on faith in the blood of the Lamb. It's the same today.

Nor have I read where God required the Jews in the OT to obey the law in their own unaided strength in order to earn or merit salvation. Obedience has always been the fruit of faith, the same as it is today.

Unquote.

Leviticus 18:4,5 – God commanded Israel to keep and obey his laws in order to be saved.

John 12:50 – Jesus indicated that keeping the law would give eternal life.

Romans 10:5 – Paul said that those who keep the law would live (quoting Moses).

These are direct commands and give us a clear meaning that “once” God asked his people to earn life through their obedience to his laws.

But, of course he knew the outcome that no man could make it, for all were “born sinners that come short of the glory of God”. Being under the law all men were guilty and convicted for their sins (Romans 3:19,20).

So, why did he issued the law and commanded them to earn their life through obeying the law?

Because, his purpose was to condemn men legally for their failure in keeping it perfectly; to condemn them for their sins in breaking the law.

The law was his means to justify his righteousness and justice, in killing men with the wage of sin, which is death.

But He knew before hand that there would be “one man” who would make it; he would be justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law and fulfills its demands. This justification would award him with life as according to God’s promise. This “one man” was Jesus Christ our Lord and God; The Son of Man.

So, I think, that the law (Ten Commandments) was issued with the requirement to keep and obey it perfectly in order to earn justification that brought life, but for born sinners of Adam’s descendant, it would become as a means of condemnation to justify the death as the wages of sin and God has the legal right to execute the death upon men.

On the other hand, the law was his means to point out people to Jesus Christ, who would be justified by the law and awarded with life, as their sin redeemer and Savior. Without justification from the law, Jesus could never be our sin redeemer because it means, he is a sinner too.

S, the law was God’s means to condemn men for their sins, justifying his righteousness and justice in creating death as a means to abolish sin and sinner forever from his universe by executing the death upon them, meanwhile, the law too was his means to justify Christ as our sin redeemer and savior after he is justified by the law for his perfect righteousness.

Therefore, the law is never a means to justify us for our righteousness, it could only condemn us for our failures and sins with death as it wages, where Christ came in and justify us by his blood as a free gift of the grace of God.

If we think this way, we would never be mislaid by the teaching that makes the law become a parallel way to heaven as I have seen and heard in our church. People would fully understand the meaning of “justification by faith” and would not loose their focus on Christ.

It is true that from the beginning, justification is only by faith for men, but not all knew this if they didn’t dig and learn the word of God with humble heart. Only them that understood the purpose of the law, would put their focus on Christ and live by faith in Him.

What do you think?

In His love

James S

James, here's what makes sense to me.

Leviticus
18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God.
18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD.

The phrase "I am the LORD" indicates that it is God who empowers us to obey, to live in harmony with the law.

John
12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63. The word "commandment" above is referring to the words of Jesus.

Romans
10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Paul isn't contrasting Jesus and Moses, rather he is comparing the two, both yield a faith which works by love. That is, faith in Christ yields a desirable end result - a life in harmony with the will of God. "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4.

I still haven't found anywhere where God purposefully commanded the Jews, or anyone else, to obey the law (in their own strength) knowing that they wouldn't be able to do it - primarily so that He could justify killing unsaved sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time.

From what I've read, God has always been willing, and able, to empower us to obey the law in His strength. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13. I consider that to be Good News - a fundamental part of the gospel.

Edit - added Phil 2:13.

[ August 10, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike, thanks for reply.

Why could no man inherit life through his obedience to the law?

God had said: “Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do; he shall live in them; I am the Lord.” Leviticus 18:4,5

John 12:50 – Jesus indicated that keeping the law would give eternal life.

Romans 10:5 – Paul said that those who keep the law would live (quoting Moses), see Galatians 3:12.

Was God just playing words? Giving false hope? I read his command to Israel that those who keep and obey his law (perfectly) would inherit life as their reward.

If he is a loving and merciful God, why could not he forgive sins without sacrificing his only begotten Son and rewarded those who perfectly obey the law with life by raising them from the dead?

In his love

James S

Mike.

Still waiting your reply.

James S.

James wrote:

quote:

---

Was God just playing words? Giving false hope? I read his command to Israel that those who keep and obey his law (perfectly) would inherit life as their reward.

---

And, I agree. But these promises must be claimed in light Philippians 2:13 (quoted above).

James wrote:

quote:

---

If he is a loving and merciful God, why could not he forgive sins without sacrificing his only begotten Son and rewarded those who perfectly obey the law with life by raising them from the dead?

---

Good question. But because we inherit a sinful nature we cannot perfectly obey the law of God in our own unaided strength. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature in order to imitate the example of Jesus.

God cannot just simply forgive and forget sinful thoughts, words and behaviour. Why? Because we are free moral agents. And so is Satan and all the evil angels. The great controversy between Christ and Satan makes it necessary for God to address Satan's accusations.

Mike.

You wrote:
God cannot just simply forgive and forget sinful thoughts, words and behaviour. Why? Because we are free moral agents. And so is Satan and all the evil angels. The great controversy between Christ and Satan makes it necessary for God to address Satan's accusations.
Unquote.

Why God could not forgives sin if he is a loving and merciful God even though we and the angels are free moral agents? The God as according to the Moslem’s is a loving and merciful God that forgives sins and rewarded those who serve him with eternal life. They didn’t need Jesus because God can forgive sin.

What hinders him to forgive sin?

When the sinner died, what hinders him to raise this man unto eternal life when he has done his best to live righteously and God has forgiven all his sins?

In His love

James S

If salvation and eternal life were granted based on doing our best not to sin then Jesus need not have died on our behalf. Why, then, did He suffer and die?

If we can work our way to heaven, inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings, what is our salvation based on? What is the criteria? Is there a limit to how many sins we can commit with impunity?

The fact is, everything we do, no matter how nice it looks, is polluted with sin and selfishness IF we do it in our own unaided strength. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. Thus, doing our best is no better than Satan doing his best.

What is faith? In what way does faith make us different than Satan? How does faith change our good works into righteousness that is pleasing and acceptable to God?

God cannot forgive sin based on us doing our best because our best is no better than sin. Anything we do without faith is sinful and unholy and unacceptable to God. He is too loving to settle for less than best.

Jesus did not die so we can continuing living in sin, doing our best to be less sinful. Sin is sin no matter how great or small. And the effects of sinning leaves us feeling empty and unhappy. Jesus died to set us free from sin and sinning.

Only the life and death and suffering of Jesus on our behalf can convince us that sin is the evil and insidious poison it is. Only the cost Jesus paid to redeem us from sin can convince us of how sick we really are.

But more than that, the wages of sin is death. Why? Because that's the way God set things up. We may not be able to completely understand why it is so, but we must take God at His word.

We were designed and created to be like God, not like Satan. When we sin we malfunction. Why? Simply because we were not designed to sin. It's like putting water in the gas tank. It won't run right. Not because God is arbitrary, but because He's loving.

Mike.

You wrote.

I still haven't found anywhere where God purposefully commanded the Jews, or anyone else, to obey the law (in their own strength) knowing that they wouldn't be able to do it - primarily so that He could justify killing unsaved sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time.

Unquote.

There must be a good reason why God issued his law of the Ten Commandments. My opinion it was issued because God must have a legitimate reason to kill people in order he might abolish sin and sinner forever from the universe, on the other hand, Jesus must be justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law in order he might become our sin redeemer and savior.

God didn’t want us to die, Adam and Eve were created to live everlasting even they were mortal, but because of their sin, they were condemned to die. Only, without a written law, God could not be justified for the death occurred to all of us.

Anybody can make his own law and whoever violated his law would be persecuted, but this would make him a tyrant and dictator. Therefore, the Ten Commandments was issued to legitimize God’s judgment in killing people to abolish sin and sinner forever, meanwhile, on the other hand to justify Christ as the only “man” in earth history that is justified by the law for his perfect righteousness in obeying the law.

The law is so holy that no man of Adam’s descendant might ever keep it perfectly without sinning even once, not even with faith in Christ. Therefore, it is not faith in Christ that saved us but his grace, for all of those who were saved and lived in heaven were once a sinner.

If any other man than Christ might be justified by the law, no matter he did it with faith in Christ or not, he would be rewarded unto eternal life for his doing, for that is the purpose of the law given: To justify a perfect righteous one unto life or to condemn a sinner with death.

So, I think, that God had planned from the very beginning before he created everything that he is going to save sinners by sacrificing his own begotten Son, to show his grace and love towards creation and justifying his justice and righteousness. He got this through the law of the Ten Commandments.

However, when the ultimate sacrifice was carried out, the purpose of the law to justify man came to an end, for all men now were justified by his grace through Christ redemption. What remain is the purpose of the law as a means of condemnation for those who put their faith in their own strength and self-righteousness.

This idea would release God from the blame of being cruel, a tyrant or dictator, even though the death is his creation, but we were not created for to die.

What do you think?

In His love

James S.