I'm not sure God needs to justify killing sinners in the lake of fire. Even before sin infected the human race God warned Adam and Eve, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17. God doesn't need a law to justify killing sinners. "Our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. Sin simply cannot survive in the presence of our holy, heavenly Father. It is akin to mercy killing - putting someone out of their misery.

LDE 279, 280

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire.--DA 600 (1898). {LDE 279.2}

Could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.--GC 542, 543 (1911). {LDE 279.3}

Mike.

You wrote:

I'm not sure God needs to justify killing sinners in the lake of fire. Even before sin infected the human race God warned Adam and Eve, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17. God doesn't need a law to justify killing sinners.

Unquote.

Check what Paul said in Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin is not imputed when there is no law, but we die still even we didn’t deserve it because “the wage of sin is death” and “sin is a transgression of the law”, but without law sin is not imputed.

Adam and Eve deserve to die for it is their own sin, only God must issued the law in order he might have a justification for the death he brought upon them. But, Adam’s descendant didn’t deserve to die, for it is not their fault they were born in sin and inherit Adam’s fallen nature, while he was created in perfection for to live everlasting.

Therefore, I think, God need a means to justify what happened to Adam and humanity, to justify the death as the wage of sin, to justify that sin is breaking his law. For without the law sin is not imputed and death should not happen to us.

Death as life is God creation, but he created men with the intention that they might live forever even they were mortal and must be sustained by the fruit of life, so, when Adam and Eve sinned, they had chosen death instead of life, only God must be responsible for what happened as they were his creation and for what he had created (life and death).

So, I believe that the law was God’s means to justify his killing, to justify death as the wage of sin and to justify that sin is breaking his law. The law legitimate God’s judgment in annihilating sin and sinners forever from his universe and his would be Kingdom in order righteousness and holiness might stand alone forever.

Therefore, I believe that the law is not a means to justify our righteousness, for we have not, but to justify our unrighteousness where Christ might came and redeem us. The law is never the focus of salvation since the beginning (only little did understand this) but Christ is our focus. Before the cross, those who would be saved had focused on Him and after the cross, those who had been saved and would remain safe must focused on him.

What is the law’s position in our walk with Christ?

It remains as a means of condemnation, but those who are in Christ are not under the law and so, are not under condemnation.

In His love

James S.

True, in Christ we are not under the bondage of the law. We are at liberty to live in harmony with its precepts and principles. In Christ that which condemns sinners justifies saints.

GC 504
The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

The reason we die the first death is simple - God will not allow us to eat the fruit of the tree of life and "live for ever" in our sinful condition. Death is not directly related to the law. We die because we do not eat the fruit of the tree of life.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

PP 47
In the midst of the garden stood the tree of life, surpassing in glory all other trees. Its fruit appeared like apples of gold and silver, and had the power to perpetuate life. {PP 46.4}

EW 51
I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}

The second death, on the other hand, is not related to the tree of life, it's related to the lake of fire. In order for sinners to die the second death God must first resurrect them. After they admit their guilt before the Great White throne, God will kill them with their sins in the lake of fire. Each one will punish and suffer according to their sins.

GC 673
Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

7BC 986
When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the Flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements (3SG 87). {7BC 986.5}

Mike.

I think the first death happened because God must abolish sin and sinners from his universe, God did kill men, not because they are not sustained by the fruit of life, but really is because death fell upon them, and death is God creation.

If there is no death, no one would die even they didn’t eat the fruit of life. They might get weaker and weaker and sick all their life but no one will die, for there s no death.

Adam and Eve were warned that they would die if they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. And they ate the fruit, and God must kill them for their sin in order sin and sinners would not live forever.

But as God had said: “The soul that sinned is the one to die”, only Adam and Eve who deserve to die, for it is their own sin and the wage of sin is death. But Adam’s descendant, humanity that were born later didn’t deserve to die, it is not their sin and they never asked to be born, but they were born in the image and likeness of Adam after the fall, who has a death body and sinful nature. This is UNFAIR and UNJUST, if God didn’t take any action to make it straight and right, he is not the God he had claimed himself to be.

Therefore, Jesus was sent to safe the world, to redeem the sin of all who is not theirs, which gives their life back through a free justification as a gift. This is an act that God carried out to perform his responsibility against creation, for he is the one who must be responsible in creating life, which some of his creatures had chosen to serve them selves more than to serve him, which make them become sinners and must die. God knew the risk of creation and is willing to take the responsibility; even it will cost the life of his only begotten Son.

On the other hand, the second death is a dead humanity deserve for it is the wages of their own sin for those who live and died in sin. Even so, to avoid men to die the second death after Christ had made them alive through his redemption work, God must work for them to keep this salvation in their possession, to remain safe. Otherwise all will lost again for in their fallen nature no one might inherit life eternal through their own effort.

So, we see why life eternal is God’s grace; because not only he had given back our life through Christ redemption, but he maintains it also for us who believes him to remain in our possession.

But to justify all these, a law must be issued, for if there is no law, there is no transgression and sin s not imputed and death will not exist.

In s love

James S.

Mike wrote:
posted September 01, 2004 01:11 PM

If salvation and eternal life were granted based on doing our best not to sin then Jesus need not have died on our behalf. Why, then, did He suffer and die?

If we can work our way to heaven, inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings, what is our salvation based on? What is the criteria? Is there a limit to how many sins we can commit with impunity?

Unquote.

If God can not forgive us who sinned, is he then a loving and merciful God?
If he is, then we can work our way to heaven inspite of our many mistakes and shortcomings. Because it is God’s love that forgives our sins. This makes salvation based on works, right?!

But, the fact is that God sent his only begotten Son to the world to save sinners. Why is that necessary???

Because I think, that human kind didn’t deserve to die for the sin of Adam and Eve who were created in perfection and holiness for an everlasting life, while we were born in sin for dying.

This is UNFAIR and UNJUST, therefore God must take an action to make everything right, to declare his justice, his righteousness and his love towards men. He must give men a second chance to live eternally, by waking them up from the death.

Through his laws and commandments he gave men a second chance to live again after death, those who did keep it will live (Leviticus 18:4,5).

But was there any person on earth justified to life thanks to his perfect obedience to the law that granted him justification? No one! Why? Because the law of God is holy, right and good, while men are sinful and were held prisoner under sin. They couldn’t fulfill the law’s demand in order to be justified for life.

But again, this is not their fault neither their mistake they were born in sin, for they didn’t ask to be born.

Therefore, God must take the last and extreme action, to come to the world himself in order to save men. His redemption justifies all men for eternal life once and for all, his blood cleanse and forgives sins, His Spirit changes men who believe him and walk in faith, back in the image of God.

Now, not only all who died would be resurrected from the death to life, but many of them has the chance to live eternally thanks to Christ who saved them and send his Spirit to them who believe him in order they might experience a change of nature, freedom from sin, a new heart ruled with love.

Thank you Christ for your love towards me.

In His love

James S

James,

Could you explain this theory of divine justice from the bible?

/Thomas

James,

You seem to be arguing the immortality of man. As I remember, the bible says God and only God is immortal. Any comments?

/Thomas

Mike wrote:

But more than that, the wages of sin is death. Why? Because that's the way God set things up. We may not be able to completely understand why it is so, but we must take God at His word.

Unquote.

But do you know that our first death is not the wages of sin? We inherits this death from Adam.

Christ didn’t come to save us because of we must die the death as the wages of sin. He came to gives our life back, because the death we experience is UNFAIR and UNJUST. He must come and die to gives our life back if he wants to be accepted as a loving God who is just and kind.

In His love

James S.

James, I agree with you that the first death is not the wages of sin. The second death is the wages of sin. We die the first death because we cannot eat the fruit of the tree of life. The first death is only a sleep. It's not the wages of sin.

But what's this about death being unfair and unjust? God is not unfair or unjust. We do not die the second death on account of Adam's sin. No way. People will die in the lake of fire because of their own sins, because they did not comply with the conditions of salvation - not because of Adam's sin.

Mike.

God would be unfair and unjust when he left us die without taking any action to safe us. We don’t deserve to die because:

1. We died because of Adam sin, where the death as the wage of his transgression was passed on to us through the multiplication of the flesh (Romans 5:12,14).
2. We died as the wages of our own sin because we are unable to keep God’s law perfectly in order to bejustified unto life, but is this our fault? No, because we didn’t asked to be born in sin and inherits Adam’s fallen sinful nature, meanwhile Adam was created in perfection for an everlasting life.

Therefore, he must come and die to redeem our sins and gives our life back and the opportunity to be released from the power of sin through faith in him.

In His love

James S.