Then would it not also be correct to conclude that these "beings" existed prior to the existence of the Scriptures?

It looks like Zechariah was given a vision of them in his day - B.C. 500 or something. So these 2 beings were "standing" in heaven in 500BC.

Do you see these beings as "literal" or "symbolic"?

If literal, then were the actual created beings, anointed for a specific purpose"

or....

If symbolic, what did they represent?

Just by reading Zechariah, they sure seem to be literal beings, because he saw them "standing".

While this conversation is directly related to the 2 witnesses, we aren't directly on Revelation 11 of which discussion was the original intent...

It was not my intention to divert from the primary theme of this topic. I was only pointing out that the Bible does provide some information that assists us in identifying these "two witnesses".

It would appear that these "two witnesses" are NOT the Old and New Testament.....Wouldn't you agree?

Please proceed....

I am very curious as to how you interpret the fulfillment of this particular prophecy.

Yes, Bob-san
This is what i wrote in my first post on this:

quote:

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Please keep in mind that i DO agree that the traditional interpretation of the two witnesses is correct - for the people who were waiting for their Lord to come in 1843/4. However, i would like to raise some points showing the final fulfillment is yet future to 2004.

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You see, i've spent hundreds of hours on Miller's books, typing them in letter by letter, and know that he definitely was led of God. Of course God said the same thing thru Ellen White. However, what was correct in 1843, may NOT be the final correct interpretation of these prophecies. You see, he had to have EVERYTHING in Revelation finished by 1843. That's why he had the papal beast being slain, destroyed, in 1798. If he could only see resurgence now!!!

So yes, the OT & NT are correct interpretations of Revelation -- for those living in 1843. Is that the only fulfillment? Many Bible prophecies have fulfillments at different times, and clearly most all of them have some bearing on the end of time, when Satan will bring all his power to sweep the whole world into his net. If we think that these prophecies have mostly all been completely fulfilled in the past, we stand a big chance of being taken in when they do occur - as written.

What are your thots on points i raised about Revelation 11? Does it seem to you that some things written there have not been fulfilled yet here in 2004? Is it all in the past? Before jumping to the conclusion, i'd like to see if i have fairly described the particulars in each verse or not.

BTW, here in Japan there is almost noone to discuss deep spiritual things with, and i'm very happy to be here on this forum. I just want to make sure i'm following all the rules....

Danielw-san

I read your previous posts with some interest. I am aware of the unique interpretations provided by a Miller and EGw.

In all honesty, I must admit that I am not in agreement with these interpretaions. The reason for this is that when these prophecies are viewed in the sequence in which they were presented, it can be easily seen that they have not been fulfilled and that they are future.

Nor do I also believe that these these prophecies in Revelation 11 are of dual-fulfillment.

Let me share with you a quick point as to how I have arrived at this conclusion.

As you have pointed out, the "two witnesses" are presented as one of the "woes" that are part of the the blowing of the "seventh trumpet" which is part of the opening of the "seventh seal".

Now if we were to back up a bit and take a look at the "sixth seal"(Rev 6:12-17) we would find that this particular prophecy is describing the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

In Chapter 7 that follows it is shown that the righteous will be in heaven after the fulfillment of the 6th Seal.

This can only mean that whatever events are depicted in the 7th seal will befall this earth and its remaining inhabitants. Those remaining inhabitants will be the Wicked who have been left behind after the Second Coming.

At the opening of the Seventh Seal, the Seven Trumpets are blown in sequence, which means that these prophetic events will be fulfilled after the Second Coming(sixth seal).

This means that the fulfillment of the "two witnesses" takes place after the Second Coming of Christ,when all the Righteous have been redeemed from this earht.

As you have probably realized by now, my understanding of prophecy is quite different from that of the traditional SDA interpretation.

One other point that I would like to bring out. I do not understand all of the particulars of how these future prophecies will be fulfilled, nor do I think that it was meant to be understood.

Jesus said that He foretold of future events so that when the event actual happened, then we would understand that He had spoken the Truth.

This is the way that I currently view the interpretation of prophecy. It is important to read it and attempt to understand it as much as is possible, but we should not endeavour to interpret these future prophecies to the point whereby we feel confident that we know how they will be fulfilled prior to their actual fulfillment.(I do not believe that this was Christ's intention when giving us these prophecies.)

So, Yes, I believe that the fulfillment of the "two witnesses" is future and I also believe that its fulfillment will take place after the Second Coming, but that is as far as I will go with it.

Where in the Bible does it say that the all prophecies are sequential, described in rank and file order, and holding to a humanly sectioned time-line?

Well, Bob-san,
That was quite a blow away for me. Thanx for coming out with your interpretations.

Is it possible that some things in Revelation are different ways of describing the same events? Or maybe some of the events can be overlapping?

If we take the whole book of Revelation as sequential, we get into trouble in a hurry because in 1:7 it says: "he comes with clouds".

The idea of the rapture of the church before the 2nd coming is not warranted by scripture. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13, Matthew 24:31 etc. disprove this, and the 3rd Angel's Message in Revelation 14:9 strongly disproves this "rapture" idea.

quote:

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And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,...

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What is the role of prophecy? You have a good point about it is to establish truth, but we should be, must be aware of what is about to take place, that way we can fortify ourselves against the Devil's snares. Most of the Jewish nation didn't understand the prophecies regarding Jesus' 1st Advent, and if we are the same about the 2nd, how can we escape a similar fate?

Ikan,

It would seem to be clear that the prophecies are presented in a historical sequence. In Daniel, the rise/fall of the world empires is presented in sequence.

In Revelation you have the sequence of the "seven churches" and the "seven seals/trumpets", and the "seven plagues".

Should any student of the Bible have the "right" to interpret the historical fulfillment of these prophecies in a different sequence than what they have been presented in?

Danielw-san

If you will look at the Revelation prophecies you can see that John is shown historical prophecies in three separated sequences....

1. Messages to the Seven Churches(Rev 2-3)
2. The Seven Seals(Rev 5-11)
3. Rise/Fall of the Beasts(Rev 12:19)

The final chapters of Revelation describe the final outcome whereby Satan/Sin are finally destroyed and this earth is recreated to its former glory. Time comes to an end.

The idea of a "Rapture" is strongly supported by Scripture. Luke 17 clearly indicates that in the Day of the Lord, some will be taken and others left behind.

This is even more clearly indicated in Revelation 14 -15.

In Rev 14 we have a description of the "Great Harvest" depicting the return of Christ whereby the earth is reaped. The righteous are redeeemed and the wicked are left to suffer the "wrath of God".

Revelation 15 then begins to describe what the "wrath of God" is by portraying the outpouring of the "Seven Plagues".

There is one distinctive difference in this interpretion of the "Rapture" when compared to what is currently being presented by LaHaye. The wicked who are left behind do not receive a second chance. If they were not taken with the righteous at the Second Coming, then their fate is sealed. They are eternally lost.

I would invite you to read through Revelation again and see if you can discover this sequence.

I believe that we should be very much aware of what is being portrayed in Revelation and that we should be constantly comparing these prophetic depictions with current day historical events to see if they are being fulfilled......and they are being fulfilled, even today.

The Second Coming of our Lord is very near.

The only way that we can avoid being mislead by the many varied interpretations of prophecy is to have ourselves firmly grounded in a personal relationship with Jesus whereby we know/recognize the "still small voice" of His Holy Spirit as it leads us into all Truth and an understanding of prophetic fulfillments.

There is no other way.