Danielw-san,

Doesn't the Bible clearly reveal that the saints will be redeemed prior to the outpouring of the seven last plagues.

See Revelation 14 & 15; Revelation 6 & 7

myarmsman,

You posted below:

quote:

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Daryl,

I thought that I had just demonstrated from Scriptural references how the Righteous will be "reaped" from this earth and the wicked will be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God".

Revelation 14,15 clearly demonstrate this.

Revelation 14:14-20 Describes the Great Harvest which is the Second Coming

Revelation 15:2-4 shows the redeemed as being in Heaven.

Revelation 15:1 clearly tells us that the seven last plagues are the "wrath of God".

Revelation 15:6 - 16:1-21 describes the Seven Last Plagues that will be poured out upon the Wicked who have remained on this earth.

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Does Revelation 17 and 18 also follow this sequence, or are those two chapters from a different sequence, and if from a different sequence, then from what sequence are they from?

Another important fact, no matter what the sequence may be or may not be in the book of Revelation or elsewhere, the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Also, to keep this relevant to the topic, what does EGW have to say about all of this? I think john has adequately given sequential references that we should also look at in relation to myarmsman's interpretation of the sequences of certain portions of the book of Revelation. Afterall, this is what this topic is all about.

No, Bob-san, there is no rapture of the saints before the 7 last plagues. Rev. 18:4 along with the other verses already shown you clearly disprove this idea.

Just a question, why do you choose not to believe Ellen White on this subject?

Daryl,

Revelation 17 & 18 depicts events that will take place after the Second Coming so that are part of the sequence.

I whole-heartedly agree!!...The Bible does not contradict itself. The contradictions lie in how the Bible has been mis-represented and mis-interpreted by man.

Danielw-san ,

Please forget that I used the term "raptured".

Let me put it this way.....

The saints, living and dead, will be redeemed from this earth at the Second Coming of Christ. The wicked will remain here upon this earth to suffer the outpouring of the seven plagues.

Revelation 18:4 is an inserted warning given to God's people to come out of "Babylon" or else they too will suffer the plagues along with her.

This warning is relevant to us today.

The Laodecian church is in jeopardy of suffering the judgment of the wicked, if they do not heed this warning.

This passage in no way confirms the belief that the saints will still be here on this earth during the time of the seven plagues.

Don't you find it curious that in all the passages describing the outpouring of these plagues, that you will not find any reference to the "saints" still be here on this earth

or.....how God will provide protection for the saints while these plagues are falling upon the earth.

The reason that you will not find such references, is because at the time of the out-pouring of these plagues, the saints will be "safe and sound" in Heaven.

Let me put this to you Danielw-san.....

If you studied the Bible with a sincere desire to understand the Truths that it contains and asked God to give you understanding of these Truths, and you discovered and are convicted by the Holy Spirit of certain Truths that are not in agreement with traditional perspectives of Truth that have been presented by EGW, then which would you choose to believe?

The same Spirit that gave words to John to write gave Ellen White words to write. Does the Holy Spirit contradict himself?

You write:

quote:

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Revelation 17 & 18 depicts events that will take place after the Second Coming so that are part of the sequence.

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Then you write:

quote:

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This passage in no way confirms the belief that the saints will still be here on this earth during the time of the seven plagues.

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You originally wrote:

quote:

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It would seem to be clear that the prophecies are presented in a historical sequence.

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But now it seems that when things in the "sequence" that don't fit your interpretation are pointed out, that you choose to interpret it differently.

When we ignore God's messengers, we will get off the platform of truth.
It's unavoidable.

Sister White's explanation of D&R is too plain to misunderstand. She describes the historical view with perfect clarity. However, there are things she did not elaborate upon, namely, a dual future and final fulfillment. But the Revelation makes it clear that "thou must prophesy again... there should be time no longer."

Those prophecies that were fulfilled by the time the Millerites experienced their Great Disappointment in 1844 must repeated and reapplied - Revelation chapters 1-11, minus the time elements mentioned therein.

This means the seals and trumpets were fulfilled by 1844. But historically we say they are still in the process of being fulfilled, and as such we cannot reapply them. I have suggested a solution to this problem elsewhere on MSDAOL. Please take a minute to read it. Thank you. Here is the link:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=82;t=000021

The idea that the redeemed will be taken away from this earth, while the wicked will be left here to suffer the seven last plagues, doesn't line up with the words of Jesus:

Luke 17:26-30
26 "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

The same day Noah and his family were shut up in the ark, the wicked were destroyed. Likewise the same day Lot and his family were led out of Sodom, the wicked were destroyed. Jesus said, "Even thus shall it be" when He returns.

Pretty straightforward!

Gentlemen,

I have participated in the discussion to the point where any further comments may serve no useful purpose.

One important point must be kept in mind though.....

We are discussing the future, which no one can clearly say with authority, will happen as they have interpreted.

I would suggest that you take all of the prophetic interpretations that EGW has given and compare them to past and current history to see if any part of them has yet to be fulfilled.

Then I would suggest that you re-study Revelation with an objective and open mind,(IOW, study it as if it were your very first time.) to see if the prophecies outlined there are being fulfilled even today.

You may be surprised.

Yes, John, that text is very straight-forward to me too!

That is why we need to look at the Bible as a whole and not just the book of Revelation.

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Spelling correction only - Daryl

[ April 13, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Please don't think me a liar, because I am posting again after stating that I wouldn't....but a thought came to me as I was driving to work.....

If we look at the texts that John shared we will certainly see that Jesus states that the wicked will be destroyed at His return. What it does not state though, is that not only will be returning a Second time, but also a Third Time. Nor does He state that there will be a 1000 year period between His Second and Third Coming. Nor does He state that the wicked will be resurrected again, only to be destroyed again by fire at the time of His Third Coming.

What conclusions can be drawn from this?

At His First Advent, Jesus gives only a generalized description of what will happen to the Righteous and Wicked. The ultimate reward of the righteous will be "eternal life". The ultimate reward of the wicked will be "eternal death".

Now when we come to Revelation, we discover that Jesus provides more exact details as to how and when these rewards will be given.

When we look at the prophetic depictions of the Second Coming of Christ(i.e. Sixth Seal, Great Harvest) we find that there is no indication that the Wicked will be destroyed at that time. It only states that they will cry for the rocks and mountains to fall upon them to hide them from Jesus, and that they will be throne into the "winepress of the wrath of God".

Revelation 15 goes on to describe the "wrath of God" as being the "Seven Plagues"

As we study further into Revelation we discover that the Wicked will suffer their final destruction at the Third Coming of Christ, when they will be thrown into the "lake of fire".

Conclusion.....

At His First Advent, Christ provided an incomplete/generalized picture of events leading up to the "end of time". Revelation provides us a more detailed picture which provides specific events and sequences. Most of the prophetic events depicted are unique and can not be found anywhere else in the Bible.