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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6904
04/11/04 05:21 PM
04/11/04 05:21 PM
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Danielw-san
I forgot to add.....
The sequences presented in Revelation cover pretty much the same historical period of time beginning with the First Advent and extending to the Second Coming and beyond.
Also, the Rapture is NOT Secret. Every eye will see the Second Coming of Christ. The righteous will welcome it. The wicked will attempt to hide from it.
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6905
04/11/04 07:06 PM
04/11/04 07:06 PM
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The Rapture indeed is NOT a Secret Rapture. Every eye will see the Second Coming of Christ. The righteous will welcome it. The wicked may attempt to hide from it, but will be consumed to death by His presence. This is generally understood as the first death. His presence in all of His glory will either resurrect or translate the righteousness, or consume or put to death the wicked. They, the wicked, will then all be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years to be soon consumed in the lake of fire, which is the second seath, fronm which there isn't any further resurrection. Seeing this title has to do with EGW's inspired understanding of this, unless you can clearly show us differently from the Bible, I strongly suggest her divinely inspired writings be heeded. ===== Spelling correction only. - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) [ June 21, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6906
04/11/04 09:24 PM
04/11/04 09:24 PM
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quote:
The idea of a "Rapture" is strongly supported by Scripture. Luke 17 clearly indicates that in the Day of the Lord, some will be taken and others left behind.
It's true that Jesus said,
Luke 17:34-36
34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Now let's look at the very next verse:
Luke 17:37
"And they answered and said unto Him, Where, Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Thus Jesus stated that those left behind on earth would be destroyed. Their dead bodies will be carrion for the eagles.
Jeremiah 25:33 says,
"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." There's no Bible support for the idea of anything being 'secret' when Jesus comes again.
He Himself said,
Matthew 24:26
"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6907
04/11/04 09:36 PM
04/11/04 09:36 PM
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Daryl,
I thought that I had just demonstrated from Scriptural references how the Righteous will be "reaped" from this earth and the wicked will be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 14,15 clearly demonstrate this.
Revelation 14:14-20 Describes the Great Harvest which is the Second Coming
Revelation 15:2-4 shows the redeemed as being in Heaven.
Revelation 15:1 clearly tells us that the seven last plagues are the "wrath of God".
Revelation 15:6 - 16:1-21 describes the Seven Last Plagues that will be poured out upon the Wicked who have remained on this earth.
Another depiction of this sequence of events can be found in the opening of the seals.
Revelation 6:12-17 describes the opening of the sixth seal which is commonly understood to be the Second Coming.
Revelation 7 then shows the redeemed in Heaven
Revelation 8-11 describes the opening of the seventh seal and the blowing of the seven trumpets that are devastating catastrophes that will befall the wicked who remain on this earth.
I would respectfully ask that you provide Scripture basis for your belief that all the living Wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns.
All mankind(wicked & righteous) are subject to the First Death.
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6908
04/11/04 11:18 PM
04/11/04 11:18 PM
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Bob wrote, quote:
I would respectfully ask that you provide Scripture basis for your belief that all the living Wicked will be destroyed when Jesus returns.
See the post immediately preceding yours.
Also the parable of the sower, Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.
Matthew 13:37-42
37 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Joel 2:1-3 also brings this to view:
1 "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; . . . .
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them." Also Isaiah 13:9 --
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6909
04/12/04 01:09 AM
04/12/04 01:09 AM
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John,
Excellent choice of scripture!
Now for a few questions....
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"? Will all of wickedness be done away with?
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6910
04/12/04 01:44 AM
04/12/04 01:44 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
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myarsman, Did you read my post where i said: "If we take the whole book of Revelation as sequential, we get into trouble in a hurry because in 1:7 it says: "he comes with clouds". The idea of the rapture of the church before the 2nd coming is not warranted by scripture. Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13, Matthew 24:31 etc. disprove this, and the 3rd Angel's Message in Revelation 14:9 strongly disproves this "rapture" idea." It seems that you just wish to propogate your ideas without much regard to reasoning from the scriptures or the inspired word in Ellen White's writings. To be respectful and answer your questions tho; quote:
Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
To answer your 11:09pm post:
1. The wicked who are alive when Jesus comes (2nd Coming) will die by his brightness, and they will die again in the lake of fire in the 2nd death.
2. The 2nd coming of Christ WILL be the end of the world for all practical purposes. The righteous will go to heaven for 1,000 years, then come down with the New Jerusalem, and the wicked will be raised, judged, and then the world remade.
3. Do you know the mind of Jesus? One reason might be, that all the righteous will be forever safe after the 2nd coming, so it isn't too important for salvation to know what happens after that point.
4. Yes, the earth will be desolate after the 2nd Coming.
Many of your problems would be answered if you believed in God's messenger - Ellen White. I've put up her classic book on this subject - The Great Controversy Between Christ and His Angels and Satan and His Angels. It is at Great Controversy
This book is written 99% in sequential order, so is very easy to follow. Here is the order of the chapters in the latter part of the book:
- 28 The Third Angel's Message
29 A Firm Platform
30 Spiritualism
31 Covetousness
32 The Shaking
33 The Sins of Babylon
34 The Loud Cry
35 The Third Message Closed
36 The Time of Jacob's Trouble
37 Deliverance of the Saints
38 The Saints' Reward
39 The Earth Desolated
40 The Second Resurrection
41 The Second Death
May we study to show ourselves approved unto God. ![[Reading]](graemlins/reading.gif) Believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6911
04/12/04 01:57 AM
04/12/04 01:57 AM
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[edit] -- Daniel, I guess we were writing at the same time! Your reply didn't appear here when I started on this - some duplication of thoughts, oh well. Bob asked: quote:
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
Twice. But not in exactly the same fashion. When Jesus comes, it's by "the brightness of His coming" (2 Thess. 2:8), but the dead will be left as corpses scattered all over the world. Jeremiah 25:33. The world will be a desolate wasteland:
Jer:4:23-27
23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." After the 1000 years when New Jerusalem comes from the Orion Nebula to the earth, and the wicked are raised, then destroyed by fire which comes "down from God out of heaven" (Rev. 20:9), there won't be anything left of them. They'll be reduced to ashes.
Malachi 4:1-3
1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."
Ezekiel 28:12-18 (using the phrase "king of Tyrus" as a figure for Satan)
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. . . .
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." quote:
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"?
Yes.
quote:
Will all of wickedness be done away with?
No -- as God says in Jeremiah 4:27, "yet will I not make a full end." That awaits the 2nd resurrection, after the millennium is finished.
quote:
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
I don't know. There are a great many things taught in the Bible that He didn't mention...or, that we have any record of Him mentioning. The identity of the beasts of Revelation 13, the mark of the beast, the seal of God, the events to occur at the end of the 2300 days....none of these things were mentioned by Him, as far as we know. He let His church know about these things later on, by His Spirit. It's evident that in His wisdom He doesn't reveal everything all at once; that's not in His plan.
John 16:12,13
12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. . . .and He will shew you things to come." I guess these are questions we can ask Him after He comes!
quote:
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
Well yeah, things won't be an ecological paradise, by any means. But wicked people will still be alive after the seven last plagues fall. After the seventh angel pours out the seventh (final) vial in Revelation 16:17, we read
Revelation 16:21
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." These are, obviously, wicked people who are blaspheming God, and this after the last plague has been poured out. Which shows there's still some work of destruction to be accomplished. We're told that the earth will be a desolate wasteland strewn with dead bodies by Jeremiah.
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6912
04/12/04 05:23 AM
04/12/04 05:23 AM
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Danielw
You missed my point. God's people will be raptured/taken at the Second Coming. There is no pre-Second Coming Rapture. When Christ will appear in the clouds the righteous dead will be resurrected and the living saints will be translated and they all will join Christ in the clouds. This will be witnessed by all inhabitants of the earth.... at the Second Coming.
All the texts that you stated strongly support this.....Especially Revelation 14.
1. How many times will the wicked suffer death by fire? Once or twice?
Ans. Once
The wicked will be destroyed by fire at the Third Coming of Christ.
Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:(See also IIThess. 2:8) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse , which sword proceeded out of his mouth:(See IIThess 2:8) and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelaton 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The final destruction of the Wicked by fire takes place after the 1000 years at the Third Coming of Christ.
2. Will the Second Coming of Christ also be the "end of this world"? Will all of wickedness be done away with?
Ans: After the Saints have been redeemed from this earth.(Sixth Seal/Rev 6:12-17) and Great Harvest/Rev 14:14-20), Revelation 8(Seventh Seal) and 15-16(Seven Plagues) indicate that the Wicked will remain on this earth to suffer the effects of the Seven Plagues/Trumpets,
3. During Jesus first advent He spoke of His Second Coming to this earth. Why did He not make any reference to His Third Coming when the earth would be recreated and the saints would inherit the New Earth? Why did He not make any reference to the 1000 year period between His Second Coming and Third Coming?
Ans. Jesus admitted that He did not know the hour of His return(Only the Father knew.)(Mark 13:32). Therefore, it could be also reasonable to conclude that perhaps Jesus also did not know that He was to be returning a third time to this earth. It was not until He ascended to Heaven and was given this knowledge that He was able to share it with the prophet John.
In His parables, Jesus was illustrating the ultimate reward of the righteous(eternal life) and the wicked(eternal death), but He did not provide the specific etails as was given in Revelation.
4. When you consider the cumulative effect of all the "plagues" that will befall this earth...what will be the overall condition of this earth? Will it not be "desolate"?
Ans: The whole cumulative effect of all the natural disasters to befall this earth during the times of the "seven plagues" will desolate this planet.
These sequences and details are clearly illustrated in the Bible.
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Re: Ellen G. White & the Interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
#6913
04/12/04 11:11 AM
04/12/04 11:11 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 265
Japan
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My wording was not correct. Instead of saying "rapture before the 2nd coming", i should have said something like: "rapture before the 7 last plagues." It is impossible that the saints do not go thru the 7 last plagues (the ones who aren't martyred anyway). If you would read some of the material and quotes given you, everything would become much clearer. The truth will set you free
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