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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7103
10/17/05 09:12 PM
10/17/05 09:12 PM
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Tom, your favorite quotes provide awesome insights regarding some of the ways God uses the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. But it is a mistake to assume they explain all of the ways God employs them.
I don't understand what you're saying here. The quotes were not speaking of what you suggested at all. They were not speaking of some of the ways God destroys. If that's what you think the subject I was addressing is, you've missed the whole point of the quotes.
When Sister White plainly describes several different ways God has punished and destroyed unsaved sinners it would be wrong, to my way of thinking, to insist she meant one way. She says what she means, and means what she says. We do not have to change the meaning of one quote to agree with the meaning of another.
Certainly inspired quotes do not disagree with each other, which is my point. The quotes you provided need to be reconciled with the clear statements that force is not a principle of God's government. To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time. This is brought out particularly well by the statement that force is the last resort of all FALSE religion. The fact that force is the last resort of all false relition implies it is not a resort of true relgion at all.
The questions you keep repeating have been addressed on other threads.
Not that I'm aware of. I never saw answers to my questions.
Yes, Jesus is a revelation of the character of God - in both the OT and NT, not just the NT. It was Jesus in the OT who killed people in various ways. You disagree.
I think you've missed the force of the quote. The quote points out the Jesus Christ is His humanity was a full and complete revelation of God's character. This does not mean that God did not reveal His character in the Old Testament, but simply that no element of that revelation in the OT is not present in the revelation Christ gave in the NT. What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.
Yes, God does not employ force to harvest obedience from His created children. But He does, and will, use the forces of nature to punish and destroy unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. You disagree.
So your suggestion is that the statement that force is not a principle of God's government means:
1)God does not use force to "harvest obedience"
2)God does use force to punish and destroy those who do not obey Him.
I fail to see how this makes any sense. It should be evident that if I say to you that if you do not obey me then I will boil you in scalding water until you die that I am indeed using force to "harvest obedience". I don't see how you could assert that I am do anything other than precisely that.
Yes, Jesus used the Flood to punish and kill the antediluvians. Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP is it taught that God merely withdrew His hand and allowed the forces of nature to run its natural course. You have yet to post one single quote that agrees with the legitimate insights you have gleaned from other passages.
I don't understand this either. I've posted dozens of quotes which agree with the "legitimate insights" you menition. All EGW quote agree with these insights. (She doesn't contradict herself)
If your idea is correct, then please prove it from the Bible or the SOP.
My idea is simply what I have stated from the SOP. The principle of force is not found under God's government; it is found only in Satan's government; it is the resort of all false religion; Jesus Christ in His humanity is the full and complete revelation of God's character. How you would you have me prove these statements are true? I've provided the references.
If Jesus merely withdrew His hand and the Flood naturally occurred, then please post a quote that says so (not unrelated quotes that you believe must be applied to the Flood). Let the Bible or the SOP speak for themselves. Please, Tom, just one quote that directly says so. Thank you.
The Spirit of Prophesy explains that God used the waters from beneath the earth in causing the flood. The only way those waters could get up into the atmosphere is if they were under great pressure. There are two possibilities I can think of as to what God did in order to cause the waters to rise from the depths of the ocean into the atmosphere:
1)Cause the depths of the ocean to open up to let the water, already under pressure, rise up.
2)Allow the depths of the ocean to open up to let the water, already under pressure, rise up.
The second choice is just as viable as the first. More so, it appears to me, because it is in harmony with the principles I presented.
When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen. There are many examples of this, including the death of Saul, the destruction of the wicked, and the coming judgments referred to in the 14 MR 3 quote provided above, to just name three. We need to compare Scripture with Scripture, or inspiration with inspiration, in order to arrive at true interpretations, just as with Rev. 20:10 for example.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7104
10/17/05 09:13 PM
10/17/05 09:13 PM
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By the way, Tom, it occurred to me to ask you about something. If nature is ready to destroy us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that nature obeys God? Because if nature didn't obey God, we would be destoyed. Destruction only occurs when God permits. quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.(14 MR 3)
Since it is clear that nature naturally obeys the will of God, how is it that nature naturally wants to destroy us? Can nature do anything against the will of God?
Of course. God is not willing that any should perish. People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).
If God must restrain the forces of nature from naturally and automatically killing us, why, then, does it say in the SOP that God sometimes allows evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to destroy unsaved sinners?
Because we live in a world of sin, God at times allows evil angels sway. It should be pointed out that not only unsaved sinners perish in these storms, but saved saints as well. The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity. This was the error the book of Job was written to correct.
Which is it? Does God withdraw His protecting hand and allow nature to run its natural course of destruction? Or, does He allow evil angels to manipulate the forces of nature to spread desolation everywhere?
The early Christians believed that Satan and his confederates were behind all storms. That is, there would be none of these storms, such as hurricanes, tsunamis, etc., if it weren't for Satan. Whether Satan specifically acts in a way to cause a storm to happen, such as with Job, or whether it is the indirect cause of actions he brought into place a long time ago, makes no difference. These things were never a part of God's plan, and only exist because of sin and Satan. God's function has always been to save us according to His goodness. This is His character.
For example, when Christ was urged to destroy those who disagreed with Him, He responded, "Luke 9:53-56, "And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." The Spirit of Prophesy, commenting on this verse, writes "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." (DA 487)
God is just like Jesus. He comes not to destroy, but to save. If His saving work is rejected, the sure result is destruction, but not because of God's disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate His work, but as the sure result of sin:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life....By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7105
10/18/05 10:19 AM
10/18/05 10:19 AM
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Brazil
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Tom,
If Christ is the full and complete revelation of God’s character, I suppose this includes His teachings, don’t you agree? When we said that Christ didn’t exercise His role as Judge when He was on earth, you argued that He spoke about it in His teachings. Now, you said that He never destroyed or punished anyone while He was on earth, but He spoke about it in His teachings (Matt. 5:22, 7:19, 13:40-42, 18:8, 25:41, etc.). How do you see that?
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7106
10/18/05 04:04 PM
10/18/05 04:04 PM
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This is a good question.
I'd say Christ's teachings don't change anything; that is, we should still be able to find in Christ's actual life and character whatever aspect of God's character we are looking for. Not just in His teachings.
This is because Christ was what He taught; or He lived what He taught. I think I quoted the SOP statement saying this earlier. Can't remember right off hand where it is, but that's the thought. So anything we find in Christ's teaching we should see in His life, because Christ was not a hyprocrit; He didn't say one thing and do another. For example, He taught to love your enemy, to turn the other cheek, to go the second mile, to bless those who curse you, and all of these things is precisely how Christ lived His life.
Regarding the verses you gave, they all speak of hell fire, and that gets back to the principle laid out in DA 764 and DA 108, that those who resist God's grace form character so out of harmony with God's that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire, and the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. So there's nothing out of harmony with what Christ said in the verses you cited with the full and complete revelation which Christ gave of His Father.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7107
10/19/05 11:26 AM
10/19/05 11:26 AM
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OK, but, again, Christ never passed judgment upon anyone while on earth; however this doesn’t mean He won’t do so in the future. In the same way, the fact that He never executed judgment upon transgressors while on earth doesn’t mean He won’t do so in the future.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7108
10/20/05 02:15 AM
10/20/05 02:15 AM
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quote:
To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time.
True. God will never force anyone to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour or choose to be saved. Not even Satan can use force or compel us to sin. But when God promises to punish and destroy us in the lake of fire if we refuse to embrace Jesus, He is not using force.
The tempter thought to take advantage of Christ's humanity, and urge Him to presumption. But while Satan can solicit, he cannot compel to sin. He said to Jesus, "Cast Thyself down," knowing that he could not cast Him down; for God would interpose to deliver Him. Nor could Satan force Jesus to cast Himself down. Unless Christ should consent to temptation, He could not be overcome. Not all the power of earth or hell could force Him in the slightest degree to depart from the will of His Father. {DA 125.1}
The tempter can never compel us to do evil. He cannot control minds unless they are yielded to his control. The will must consent, faith must let go its hold upon Christ, before Satan can exercise his power upon us. But every sinful desire we cherish affords him a foothold. Every point in which we fail of meeting the divine standard is an open door by which he can enter to tempt and destroy us. And every failure or defeat on our part gives occasion for him to reproach Christ. {DA 125.2}
quote:
What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.
In what sense? What He set out to demonstrate and do was full and complete. However, Jesus did not come to earth to finish the great controversy. There is more to it, more that has yet to be accomplished.
quote:
When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen.
Tom, once again, you have failed to prove your point. Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP does it say God allowed the forces of nature to unleash their pent up fury upon the antediluvians. It is true there were times that God allowed holy angels and unholy angels to fulfill His will in manipulating the forces of nature to punish and to destroy unsaved sinners. But never does it say they merely withheld holding back the inevitable course of nature. Never. Nature obeys the will of God. It doesn’t do anything without God causing or allowing it to happen.
quote:
People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).
There is no calamity that God does not cause or permit. Nothing happens on this planet without God’s consent.
quote:
The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity.
Not at all. I’m referring to specific cases, cases that involve only the unsaved. I agree there are times when God allows bad things to happen to good people. The point is, it is God who is either causing it or allowing it to happen - not Satan.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7109
10/19/05 10:04 PM
10/19/05 10:04 PM
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To state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time.
True. God will never force anyone to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour or choose to be saved. Not even Satan can use force or compel us to sin.
You're adding a qualification where one doesn't belong. As I said above, to state that force is not a principle of God's government, means it's not EVER a principle of God's government, not just some or all of the time. You agreed to this. It's illogical of you to agree to a statement which is unqualified and then qualify it. If you have to qualify the statement, then you can't agree to the unqualified version.
But when God promises to punish and destroy us in the lake of fire if we refuse to embrace Jesus, He is not using force.
This is force. If I say to you if you don't do what I tell you, I will boil you in scalding water for many hours, supernaturally keeping you alive so you can feel the pain, then this is the force of coersion. "Obey me or I'll kill you" is force. That this is how God gets converts is the devil's claim. He made this same argument, in principle, regarding Job.
I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).
What I disagree with is the idea that Christ's revelation in the NT was not full and complete.
In what sense?
In any sense. "Full and complete" means there is nothing left out.
What He set out to demonstrate and do was full and complete. However, Jesus did not come to earth to finish the great controversy. There is more to it, more that has yet to be accomplished.
This is a moot point to my comment. I made no claims regarding the Great Controversy; simply that Jesus Christ was a full a complete revelation of God's character.
When inspiration says that God causes something to happen, that may mean that God allows the thing to happen.
Tom, once again, you have failed to prove your point.
Do you really disagree with my statement? I only have to produce one example to prove my statement. The Bible says God killed Saul, but Saul committed suicide. Although it says God killed Saul, it is clear it means that God allowed Saul to die. This proves my statement.
Nowhere in the Bible or in the SOP does it say God allowed the forces of nature to unleash their pent up fury upon the antediluvians.
You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion. This is the only reasonable conclusion I can come to given principles such as:
1)Force is not a principle of God's government.
2)All that can be known of God was revealed by the life and character of His Son (who came not to destroy, but to save).
3)All truth must be related to the cross in order to be properly understood.
As far as I can tell, you have made no attempt to harmonize your position with these principles. I must reject any position which is contradictory to these inspired principles.
It is true there were times that God allowed holy angels and unholy angels to fulfill His will in manipulating the forces of nature to punish and to destroy unsaved sinners. But never does it say they merely withheld holding back the inevitable course of nature. Never. Nature obeys the will of God. It doesn’t do anything without God causing or allowing it to happen.
If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.
People perish all the time because of sin, but no calamity is God's will (except in the sense that He permits it).
There is no calamity that God does not cause or permit. Nothing happens on this planet without God’s consent.
Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.
The way you are phrasing things makes it sound as if one could determine that a person was unsaved because they perished in some calamity.
Not at all. I’m referring to specific cases, cases that involve only the unsaved. I agree there are times when God allows bad things to happen to good people. The point is, it is God who is either causing it or allowing it to happen - not Satan.
If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7110
10/19/05 10:34 PM
10/19/05 10:34 PM
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To pass judgment means to "evaluate: form a critical opinion of." Jesus did this at every moment during His life on earth. Perhaps you meant "execute judgement", as in act as a judge. But Jesus addressed this in John 12 where He said, quote:
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
(Sorry if I misunderstood what you were wanting to say).
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He acted no differently during His life on earth then God acts at any other time. This is the whole point in asserting that all that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. If God, whether God the Father or God the Son, were to at some point in time act differently than what Jesus revealed in His life and character, then the statement that all we can know of God was revealed in His life and character would be false.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7111
10/20/05 12:41 AM
10/20/05 12:41 AM
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quote:
I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).
I posted it because you keep insisting that only Satan uses force. But according to the SOP Satan cannot make anyone sin by employing force. He cannot compel anyone to sin. That is the context of the passages where she talks about force. That is, God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus. But, she never uses the word “force” in the context of God killing people. Why? I believe it is because doing so is not using force to make someone believe in Jesus. It is punishing and destroying them for not believing in Jesus.
quote:
You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion.
Not if you read the inspired account the way it is written. There is nothing vague or ambiguous about the way it is described in the Bible or the SOP. That’s why you will never read an inspired commentary that agrees with how you are applying the “force” quotes.
quote:
If holy angels did God's bidding by maniuplating the forces of nature, then force is a principle of God's government. That violates the first principle mentioned above. There's also the problem that it would have God acting differently than what Jesus Christ revealed in His life and character.
Tom, how do you explain this passage:
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
quote:
Agreed. But the fact that God allows certain things to happen does not mean that all that happens is His will. For example, God permits those who reject Him to be lost, but it is His will that they be saved.
Do you mean preference? It is not God’s desire or preference to punish and destroy people in the lake of fire, but neither is it His will that they live forever in a sinful state.
It is His will to punish and to destroy them if they reject Jesus. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Mat 10:28) The following quotes confirm this point:
2 Peter
2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Hebrews
2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
quote:
If God allows Satan to do something, then it is Satan who is doing it, not God. For example, all the bad things that happened to Job were Satan's doing, not God's. That's a major point, the major point, of the story.
Not so. God is responsible for what He allows Satan to do. Satan can do no more and no less than what God gives Him permission to do. Satan can do only those things God feels, under the circumstances, are right and best for everyone involved. He will not allow Satan to tempt us beyond our ability, in Christ, to resist. Satan is only free to do those things that God allows him to do. He is not at liberty to refuse to do those things God orders him to do. He is, in one sense, obligated to obey God.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7112
10/20/05 01:54 AM
10/20/05 01:54 AM
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I snipped out the comments about the fact that we can't be compelled to sin, as this is irrelevant for our present discussion (unless you can point out some relevance -- I certainly don't see any).I posted it because you keep insisting that only Satan uses force. Why do you find it so difficult to correctly represent what I say? I've never once said that only Satan uses force. What I've said is exactly what the Spirit of Prophesy said:
quote:
"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." (DA 759).
It is not only Satan who uses force, but all those who ascribe to the principles of his government are capable of using force. But according to the SOP Satan cannot make anyone sin by employing force. He cannot compel anyone to sin. This isn't relevant to our conversation. Whether or not Satan causes us to sin by using force has no bearing on the fact that force is not a principle of God's government. At least, I can't see any relation.That is the context of the passages where she talks about force. That is, God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus. But, she never uses the word “force” in the context of God killing people. Why? I believe it is because doing so is not using force to make someone believe in Jesus. It is punishing and destroying them for not believing in Jesus. You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you say God will not use force to make anyone believe in Jesus, and then immediately following, you say He does. If God pusnishes and destroys people for not believing in Jesus, He is using force to get them to believe in Him.
Here's an example. Let's say you owe my $1,000. I tell you I will not use force to may you pay back your debt. If you refuse to pay, however, I will boil you in scalding water until you die. However, I'm not forcing you to pay; I'm just punishing you if you don't pay. That doesn't make much sense, does it?You're correct, MM. It is necessary to use reason to come to this conclusion.Not if you read the inspired account the way it is written. This is incorrect, MM. We MUST use reason to understand ANY Scripture or inspired text. There is NO Scripture or inspired text that can be understood without reasoning. Consider the following:
quote:
The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary.(GW 315)
Since no truth can be rightly understood and appreciated apart from the light that streams from the cross of Calvary, it is evident that no truth can be understood without reasoning.
In fact, one of the weaknesses I notice in your arguments is the lack of any connection to the cross of Calvary. How does your idea of what is happening correspond to what Calvary reveals? How does Calvary help you rightly understand what you consider to be the truth here? I'll split my response.
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