I see we still refuse to correct our erroneous view of inspiration, even though it clearly does not work.

Are there discrepencies in the Bible? Apparant ones, obviously; but are there errors? Yes!

"I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible, yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition". (Early Writings, pages 220-221)

Does this mean I agree with your definition? Only slightly as I see no error in the cock crowing story based on the Bibles own method of understanding (Isaiah 28:10-13).

Matthew states before the cock crows, Peter would deny Jesus thrice (26:34) and records the incident (26:69-74). Mark states that the cock would crow twice (14:30) and records the whole incident (14:66-72) with the cock crowing twice. Luke states the cock would NOT crow until Peter denied Jesus thrice (22:34) and records the incident (22:55-62). And John, likewise, states that the cock would NOT crow until Peter denied Jesus thrice, and records the incident (18:15-18; 25-27).

So which is it? Did the cock crow prior to the third denial or not?

To those who do not believe in the full inspiration of the Bible, there is a contradiction. Congratulations, if you see one here, you will continue to see them until the Bible no longer is trustworthy, nor can be with so many discrepencies.

To those who do believe in the full inspiration of the Bible, we need to apply the techniques as presented by the Bible and the SOP.

Are there more than one passage that sheds light on this topic? Yes, they have been quoted. Can they be made to harmonize? Yes, at least by inserting the word "twice" into some passages. Such as "The cock shall not crow (twice) before thou has denied me thrice". If we removed "twice" from Mark's passage, then we must logically remove his account of the cock crowing twice as well. But the Bible is a whole and can be made to harmonize on this topic.

I don't make myself an expert in this area, but I have posted extensively on this topic in other forums showing examples from both the Bible and the SOP where discrepencies were thought to exist. The point is we have the Bibles own example in this one that we can harmonize, it is not like we have external evidence showing a passage not to be true.

The point is, do we throw up our hands and say there is an error, or do we roll up sleeves, pray for enlightenment to our puny brains and work it out?

As far as the 'every word that Ellen White ever said' being inspired, do you really want such an example as "pass the potatoes" going down in the records as a mature example in this area? Obviously, we are referring to what has been written, especially to us on whom the ends of the world are come.

Are there errors in the Testimonies? Conflict of the Ages series? Any of the published works?

I wonder if there are not heathen masquerading themselves as Seventh-day Adventist, Bible-believing Christians that subtly want to make errors appear in the Bible and SOP as a way of avoiding their message. Jesus took His stand on them, and so do I.

"The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding and language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious at evading the truth, amny read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible" (1 Selected Messages, page 19)

"The Bible points to God as its author.." (ibid, page 25)

"The word of the Lord comes to us who have not resisted His Spirit by determining not to hear and obey..." (ibid, page 28)

"Some who are not willing to receive the light, but who prefer to walk in ways of their own choosing, will search the testimonies (or the Bible) to find something in them to encourage the spirit of unbelief and disobedience. Thus a spirit of disunion will be brought in; for the spirit which leads them to criticize the testimonies will also lead them to watch their brethren to find in them something to condemn." (ibid, page 48) bracketed "()" words supplied

Have any more discrepencies? I love to collect them and will try to answer all as best I can.

Ellen White never claimed to be infallible. There was a time she stated the wrong number of rooms in a hospital or something like that. She stated she got bad information from a human source. She erred like any other human would. Who cares how many rooms are in the hospital?

Regarding the cock crowing, the problem would be with what Jesus actually said, wouldn't it? The two accounts have slight differences. There are slight differences in many instances.

We are not fundamentalists. We do not believe in verbal inspiration. There's no need to "harmonize" these differences.

Consider the number of dead recorded in a battle. Suppose it says "100,000" died. Does that mean it wasn't 99,999? Or any other number? Would this also be an error?

IMO, the problem with taking this position, we make God to be arbitrary, One who majors in minors. But God is not like that. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. God is concerned that our heart be right. That minor details match exactly makes no difference to the development of our character. Our trust in God, that He has attended to the Bible to give us that which is essential for us to know for our salvation, is.

The main reason why I started this thread was for me to try to understand WHY we the SDA Church would need for so MUCH writting from a prophet in this day. EGW wrote and wrote and wrote. I have asked at church if anyone has read, and if they did if they understood ALL of her writtings. The responses that I have received are like Ivory soap 99.44% of the people state NO, that they have not read all (the vast majority have read VERY LITTLE) and about understanding...The church is divided more than the middle east on her statements. The Ultra Conservative state that we must become vegetarians OR be lost. The Liberals claim that it doesn't matter about the physical food, but it is rather the spiritual that is important! I am trying to understand WHY WHY WHY do we have so many volumes from EGW...more words in total than the Bible, quoted more often than the Bible in the Adult Sabbath School that I have been attending. And the kicker is that yes it is in the Baptismal questions about the fact that we believe that EGW had the Spirit of Prophecy (therefor EGW was a Prophet).
-So her is an added dimension to my original question:
Today Paul McCartney (sp) the former Beatle is on an ice flow not too far from my beach and he is voicing his views against CLUBBING seals: Why do we the SDA church allow the CLUBBING of people whom enter the Church, or are searching for truth, with the CLUB of the works of EGW?????
-Let's put her works where they were supposed to be! Council for the Church yes! BUT letter of the LAW, NO! The Bible must be the final word! For it is the GREATER light with EGW's SOP materials all being the lesser light, pointing to the greatest LIGHT!

-WENNELL: your judgement should best be left for the LORD. In no way would I, nor should we, state that people would end up with as in your words:

"I pity those who try to dicotimize between the two, for they shall have neither in the end. " (in reference to the BIBLE and EGW's SOP)

asygo, your quote is nice and all BUT what is the point??? If according to the quote , that people would not heed the call of the BIBLE what or why would they "soften their hearts" to the thousands of pages written by EGW?
-Please understand that these are just questions here. I am wondering how those people that do not strive to follow the SDA BIBLICAL teachings, look at the Seventh-day Adventist Church where some people strive to put EGW as high and in some cases even highr than the BIBLE.


-So this brings another question to the forefront. Do we need to study follow and believe the writtings of EGW to be saved?

The point was you asked the reason for her writings, and he provided a quote which gave the reason.

Regarding what we should do, we should be as little children, willing to receive light whereever God sees fit to have it shine. The fact that there are some who misuse her writings should not prevent us from getting a blessing out of it.

Regarding your original question, did you read the chapter I suggested you read? That should have answered it.

There are a number of different topics now being discussed, so let's deal with them one at a time.

1) Are Ellen White's writings on par with the Bible?

Yes, they have the same Author, so we make a mistake when we try to pit one against the other. If you disagree with this, then may I propose that the real question would be to ask God why He sent another prophet if one was not needed.

Furthermore, what group since Apostalic time has had the entire truths set out in the Bible? This demonstrates the need of Him sending Ellen White. Quit dichotomizing between Ellen White and the Bible, because we could do the same with any Bible writer. Can we do without Paul? or Isaiah? or Moses?

Quit applying Ellen White's words against her message. "She was only the lessor light", "she never claimed infallibility". No writer of the Bible ever claimed to be infallible. Do we discard Pauls writings because he was the less of the least of the Apostles? Or because he admittedly was the chiefest of sinners? All these claims show the humbleness of the writer, NOT the importance (or lack of) their message!

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth WHOMEVER I send receiveth Me; and he that receiveth Me receiveth Him that sent Me." (John 13:20)

"He that heareth you hearth Me; AND HE WHO DESPISETH YOU DESPISETH ME; and he that despiseth Me dispiseth Him that sent Me." (Luke 10:16)

2) What about compilations?

What about them? Are they inspired as well? This depends on who made them and their intent. The EGW Estate has guidelines to go by in making compilations (write and ask before making judgments). Official EGW complilations MUST state the source of any and all quotations so readers can check the contents (whether they do or not is on them). Unofficial compilations are dependent on who made them.

Does this mean official compilations are error free?

The worst type of lie is an imbalance of truth. That is, overemphasising one truth over another. Why is this the worst? Because there is no lie in the statements themselves. Case point, the book Questions on Doctrine: it sought to project the view that Ellen White stated Christ came in Adam's nature BEFORE the fall by NOT quoting pertinent texts that would prove otherwise. In this case, one would have to dig for the quotes themselves in order to understand truth rather than rely on "force fed" quotations.

3) What about "clubbing" people with EGW statements?

We do the same with the Bible, why should EGW statements be different? Do we throw both out because people use them roughly? No matter how it is presented, the truth is still the truth!

4) Is everything Ellen White wrote or said inspired?

Again we see the statement, "pass the potatoes" and again I will say that this is an example of the most ignorant and immature mindset. Those who see this type of example are looking for a reason to disbelieve. The same could be said about ANY Bible writer while they were yet alive and the person inquiring would have the same, age-old mindset of wanting to undermine God's word that He is passing through His prophet.

5) Do we believe in "verbal" inspiration?

You better!

"Although I am dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in writing my views as I receive them, yet the words I employ in describing what I have seen are my own, unless they be those spoken to me by an angel, WHICH I ALWAYS ENCLOSE IN MARKS OF QUOTATION." (R&H 10-8-1867)

Yes, read that quotation carefully and you will see that BOTH are correct, but there are places in both the Bible and the SOP that ARE verbally inspired! (The church's official view is against verbal inspiration, but it is quite clear from this statement that they are wrong).

6) What about discrepencies, rounding numbers, wrongly cited quotations about the number of rooms?

Show me a genuine descrepency! God does major in minors where salvation is concerned. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God..." What writings of Ellen White's may contain errors? How about Manuscript Releases! Why? Because it contains diary entries, meaningless letters (as far as salvation), etc. We need to be careful in these matters. But what about those I already mentioned? Testimonies, Conflict of the Ages, Publication articles? I would not expect to find any errors in them. What about her claim of not being infallible? Even the EGW Estate repeats this claim but does NOT list ONE documented error in her writings that she has not corrected herself. Do you know of any?

7) Do we need to follow the writings of Ellen White to be saved?

Are there conditions of salvation? Yes or no. What are those conditions? One of the highest should be that we strive with all our effort to know as much about God as we possibly can.

"My people are destroyed for a lack of KNOWLEDGE... because thou have rejected KNOWLEDGE I will also reject thee..." (Hosea 4:6)

The real question is not, do I have to read her writings as I presume you already have read at least some. The real question is do you have to follow those that you question are "Biblical" or not. If you never heard of Christianity, or the Bible, or Ellen White, can you be saved? Yes, according to Paul in Romans 2, as long as you follow the Spirit's leading in your heart (without ever even knowing about the Holy Spirit). But if you know of these, are you saved in your ignorance or in your disobedience?

Obviously people here are ostracized for condemning what God condemns ("Don't judge me"), while the Bible makes clear that we are to judge (John 7:24; 1 Corithians 6). But this also shows that one has trouble with what the Bible says, not the messenger.

8) Is there something we must do to be saved?

Loaded question. The answer is yes.

"The let none say there are no conditions to salvation. There are decided conditions, and everyone is put to the strenuous task of diligently inquiring and searching for the truth from God's word." (Manuscript Releases, Vol 13, page 22)

This does not mean we "earn" salvation, and to those who can't see a difference it is because "spiritual things are spiritually discerned". Noah was told to build an ark, did he do it? Would he have been saved if he said no? Would he been saved if he only built a canoe? But did his building the ark guarantee his spot on the ark? No.

Has far as being saved 2,00 years ago:

"The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this THE SACRIFICE OF CHRIST WOULD HAVE BEEN TO NO AVAIL". (Desire of Ages, page 671)

Darius, I see you are nothing but New Theology according to your posts here and elsewhere. PhD means you have wordly wisdom, but I see you have no Spiritual wisdom.
________________________________________________

In conclusion, we better be very, very careful how we handle God's word through whatever medium He chooses to send it. Either the Bible, or Ellen White, or the Spirit, or any other source - we need to recognize Truth as it is in Jesus and walk in that Truth, or we will be lost