Dear Will:
When we hold as a doctrine or statement of faith that the writings of E.G. White are equal to the Bible, non-SDAs and non-believers think that we are like the Latter day saints who hold that the writings of Joseph Smith are equal to the Bible and they reject our teachings are a cult.
We must do as E.G. White instructed us. We must hold that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the only infallible rule of faith and practice. GC 595
Jesus asked his disciples who men say he is. They said that some believe him to be a prophet like John the Baptist, Elias, or Jeremiah. then, Simon Peter said that Jesus was the Son of the living God. Jesus said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him, but his Father in heaven. Likewise, flesh and blood should not tell a non-SDA that the writings of E.G. White are thought inspired like the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New testaments, but the Father of Jesus who is in heaven should reveal this to the non-SDA or non-believer.

I agree with you Dr.Glenn, the Bible is our rule of faith. Its a no brainer for me even when Sister White gives obvious statements to support it, yet people continue to use it as their standard.
God Bless,
Will

It's interesting to me that SDAs can read the SOP and go away feeling that they've read something less inspired than the Bible. I have non-SDA friends who are more convinced that the SOP is divinely inspired than some of my SDA friends. Go figure.

Is the SOP just as inspired as the Bible? Of course!

Does this mean I also believe the SOP replaces the Bible? Of course not!

They go hand-in-hand.

Tom,

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth now. You started this by agreeing with Darius that we were saved 2,000 years ago. That is New Theology and evangelical Christianity and denies the investigative judgment. You have then argued the very points that I was arguing as if to make yourself in harmony with the very thing you were argueing against. One might logically wonder if you know what you believe!

1) If you look at my posts, especially the very last post at the bottom of page 1, you will see that I stated this is not an issue of Faith or Works, but faith THAT works. You have since argued that same point, however, that would be a contradiction of your first view that we are saved by faith ALONE. If you are now stating faith THAT works then you are necessarily agreeing that it IS more than just faith ALONE. Otherwise, as stated, you ARE talkning out of both sides of your mouth.

2) English dictates that the statements "faith in Christ alone" and "faith alone in Christ" are two different statements. While the context does show she was stating that it is NOT faith AND works, it is still presumptious to state she was saying "faith alone" when she had opportunity to say so herself, but didn't.

3) I did NOT overstate my opposition to "faith alone" in the Steps to Christ quote, but I did fail to state the whole context (I am typing these quotes in by hand). Her view was NOT that we are saved by faith ALONE but that we receive grace by faith alone and the grace makes us obedient as the quote finishes..."Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith ONLY, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which ENABLES US TO RENDER OBEDIENCE. (Steps to Christ, page 60) This is the same as I stated earlier that by faith we experience the grace (power of God - 2 Corinthians 12:9) of God, which works out righteousness in our lives.

4) I am not disagreeing with Martin Luther, but clarifying that his view of sola fe is misunderstood as meaning that sanctified works have nothing to do with salvation. A view not found in his writings.

5)In your replies, I have not seen your answer to James premise that we are NOT justified by faith ONLY (or, alone). You are still out of harmony with the Scriptures. You will not, and cannot, produce a quote from either the Bible or the SOP of states we are saved by "faith alone", except the one you contort to say what it does not. While the context of your quote does say it is NOT faith AND works, it doesn't say it is by faith ALONE.

"The sanctification now gaining prominence in the religious world carries with it a spirit of self-exaltation and a disregard for the law of God that marks it foreign to the Bible. Its advocates teach that sanctification is an instantaneous work (THEREBY ACCOMPLISHED 2,000 YEARS AGO), by which, through FAITH ALONE, they attain to perfect holiness. "Only believe," (AGAIN, BELIEF AND FAITH ARE THE SAME WORD IN THE GREEK, "PISTOS") say they, "and the blessing is yours." No further EFFORT on the believer is supposed to be required. At the same time they deny the authority of God's law, urging that they are released from obligation to keep the commandments. But is it possible for men to be holy, in accord with the will and character of God, without coming into harmony with the principles which are an expression of His nature and will, and show what is well pleasing to Him? The desire for an EASY RELIGION that REQUIRES NO STRIVING, NO SELF-DENIAL, NO DIVORCE from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of FAITH, AND FAITH ONLY, a popular doctrine; but what sayeth the word of God? (James 2:14-24 quoted, ending with...) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT by FAITH ONLY." (Great Controversy, page 471-472)

"As recipients of His grace, shall we not do our part by working out our salvation with fear and trembling? It is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. MAN WORKS, AND GOD WORKS; but God can do NOTHING without Man's co-operation." (R&H 1/25/1898)

Man works, and God works. Man is called upon to strain every muscle, and to exercise every faculty, in the struggle for immortality; but it is God who supplies the efficiency." (R&H 4/28/1910)

A far cry from "faith ALONE!"

6)Mountain man - Adding to the Bible is placing something into the text that isn't there at all. What I demonstrated was how to use the Word to supplement itself by itself. I didn't add the word "twice", Mark did, and while talking about the SAME EVENT. But because the Bible is a whole we need to view every text that pertains to every or any other text. Moses tells us that the children of Israel wanted to return to Egypt when the going got tough but it takes Nehemiah to tell us that they came as far as selecting someone to lead them back. This is NOT adding to a text, it is using the Bible as a whole. While Ellen White tells us that in certain instances passages have been changed, the Bible as a whole is still the truth. This is a far cry from your insinuations that God is responsible for "inspired discrepencies". My Bible says that God is NOT the Author of confusion!

Splitting this up into two groups so as to not be too long...

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth now. You started this by agreeing with Darius that we were saved 2,000 years ago.

What are you talking about? Please quote something I wrote. I don't know what you're referring to here. I've read all my comments on this thread several times, and I have no clue as to what you're referring to. If you would quote what you have in mind, I wouldn't have to waste my time trying to hunt down something I didn't say.

That is New Theology and evangelical Christianity and denies the investigative judgment.

What is "that"? What specifically that I wrote are you disagreeing with? Instead of labeling something you disagree with, I would prefer you quoted it.

You have then argued the very points that I was arguing as if to make yourself in harmony with the very thing you were argueing against. One might logically wonder if you know what you believe!

Read my metanarative. That's what I believe. Please post yours as well.

1) If you look at my posts, especially the very last post at the bottom of page 1, you will see that I stated this is not an issue of Faith or Works, but faith THAT works. You have since argued that same point, however, that would be a contradiction of your first view that we are saved by faith ALONE.

This isn't my view. It's Biblical. It's in the Spirit of Prophecy. Consider the publican who wouldn't so much as lift his eyes to heaven but smote his breast and prayed, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." He want away justified.

If you are now stating faith THAT works then you are necessarily agreeing that it IS more than just faith ALONE. Otherwise, as stated, you ARE talkning out of both sides of your mouth.

Salvation is by faith in Christ alone. But it's a faith which works. Jones and Waggoner preached this. Luther preached it. Ellen White preached it. Paul preached it. Jesus preached it.

2) English dictates that the statements "faith in Christ alone" and "faith alone in Christ" are two different statements.

Not necessarily. They might or might not mean two different things. The context would have to decide. For example, I could say, "I went alone by car" meaning I went in a car by myself. I could say, "I went by car alone" meaning the same thing, although it could mean I only used a car as a means of transport. The first is more likely, but the second would be possible if the context warranted it.

While the context does show she was stating that it is NOT faith AND works, it is still presumptious to state she was saying "faith alone" when she had opportunity to say so herself, but didn't.

If you are that what I stated agrees with the context, how can you say my comment is presumptuous? Isn't is rather your comment about my comment being presumptuous which is presumptuous?

3) I did NOT overstate my opposition to "faith alone" in the Steps to Christ quote,

Did I say you had? What shout NOT?

but I did fail to state the whole context (I am typing these quotes in by hand).

I'm using a computer. Well, I guess I'm using my hands too.

Her view was NOT that we are saved by faith ALONE but that we receive grace by faith alone and the grace makes us obedient as the quote finishes..."Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith ONLY, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which ENABLES US TO RENDER OBEDIENCE. (Steps to Christ, page 60) This is the same as I stated earlier that by faith we experience the grace (power of God - 2 Corinthians 12:9) of God, which works out righteousness in our lives.

When she wrote "salvation is by faith in Christ alone" (which you agree, by context, means "faith alone" and not "Christ alone") she didn't mean we are saved by faith alone? If she meant what you are saying instead of what she said, why didn't she say what you said instead of what she said?

4) I am not disagreeing with Martin Luther, but clarifying that his view of sola fe is misunderstood as meaning that sanctified works have nothing to do with salvation. A view not found in his writings.

If you are not disagreeing with Luther regarding justification, then you are agreeing that justification is by faith alone, since that's what he taught. Earlier you stated that I was talking out of both sides of my mouth, but it appears to me this shoe fits better on the foot of another. Honestly, I don't know what you believe. Sometimes you seem to be vehemently disagreeing with me, and others equally vehemently agreeing.

Do you believe that salvation is by faith alone or not? I say it is; the genuineness of the faith will be demonstrated by the works it produces.

Continuing...

5)In your replies, I have not seen your answer to James premise that we are NOT justified by faith ONLY (or, alone).

I comment on this, and provided a detailed quote by Waggoner explaining it. It's ten posts above yours.

You are still out of harmony with the Scriptures.

Statements like this add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

You will not, and cannot, produce a quote from either the Bible or the SOP of states we are saved by "faith alone", except the one you contort to say what it does not.

You seem to be of the persuasion that just because you say something is true, that makes it true. Truth is established on the basis of evidence. Instead of stating what you think I can't do, why not just ask me to produce evidence for whatever position you want me to substantiate? Just because I only produced one statement, doesn't mean I can't produce more. I only produced one because one clear statement should be sufficient.

Well, this is an interesting challenge. I'll see how many I can come up with. I'll start with Scripture.

quote:

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Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:4,5)

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quote:

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16)

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quote:

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17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. (Luke 15)

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quote:

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23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. (Matt. 18)

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quote:

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(10) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
(11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
(12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18)

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quote:

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6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Romans 4:6-8)

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quote:

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8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10)

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quote:

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23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans 6)

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quote:

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6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.(Romans 11)

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quote:

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8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.(Eph. 2)

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quote:

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23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3)

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quote:

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20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.(Romans 3)

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Here's some Spirit of Prophecy quotes

quote:

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There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 18; from the chapter titled "Through Faith Alone")

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quote:

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Our acceptance with God is sure only through His beloved Son, and good works are but the result of the working of His sin-pardoning love. They are no credit to us, and we have nothing accorded to us for our good works by which we may claim a part in the salvation of our souls. Salvation is God's free gift to the believer, given to him for Christ's sake alone. The troubled soul may find peace through faith in Christ, and his peace will be in proportion to his faith and trust. He cannot present his good works as a plea for the salvation of his soul.(3SM 199)

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quote:

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Man can be justified alone through the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Man is justified freely by God's grace through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (That I May Know Him 82)

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quote:

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It is impossible for man to save himself. Christ's righteousness alone can avail for his salvation, and this is the gift of God. This is the wedding garment in which you may appear as a welcome guest at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Let faith take hold of Christ without delay, and you will be a new creature in Jesus, a light to the world. Christ is called "The Lord our righteousness." And through faith each one should say, "The Lord my righteousness." When faith lays hold upon this gift, the praise of God will be upon our lips, and we shall be able to say, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."(BE 4/1/93)

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quote:

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When you turn away from the broken cisterns that can hold no water, and in the name of Jesus your Advocate come directly to God, asking for the things you need, the righteousness of Christ will be revealed as your righteousness, the virtue of Christ as your virtue. You will then understand that justification will come alone through faith in Christ; for in Jesus is revealed the perfection of the character of God; in His life is manifested the outworking of the principles of holiness.(1SM 330)

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While the context of your quote does say it is NOT faith AND works, it doesn't say it is by faith ALONE.

Do you think it's by faith and something else which isn't works? Instering. I haven't heard that idea before. What would the something else be?

"The sanctification now gaining prominence in the religious world carries with it a spirit of self-exaltation and a disregard for the law of God that marks it foreign to the Bible. Its advocates teach that sanctification is an instantaneous work (THEREBY ACCOMPLISHED 2,000 YEARS AGO), by which, through FAITH ALONE, they attain to perfect holiness. "Only believe," (AGAIN, BELIEF AND FAITH ARE THE SAME WORD IN THE GREEK, "PISTOS") say they, "and the blessing is yours." No further EFFORT on the believer is supposed to be required. At the same time they deny the authority of God's law, urging that they are released from obligation to keep the commandments. But is it possible for men to be holy, in accord with the will and character of God, without coming into harmony with the principles which are an expression of His nature and will, and show what is well pleasing to Him? The desire for an EASY RELIGION that REQUIRES NO STRIVING, NO SELF-DENIAL, NO DIVORCE from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of FAITH, AND FAITH ONLY, a popular doctrine; but what sayeth the word of God? (James 2:14-24 quoted, ending with...) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT by FAITH ONLY." (Great Controversy, page 471-472)

"As recipients of His grace, shall we not do our part by working out our salvation with fear and trembling? It is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. MAN WORKS, AND GOD WORKS; but God can do NOTHING without Man's co-operation." (R&H 1/25/1898)

Man works, and God works. Man is called upon to strain every muscle, and to exercise every faculty, in the struggle for immortality; but it is God who supplies the efficiency." (R&H 4/28/1910)

A far cry from "faith ALONE!"

Not at all. It is faith alone; but salvific faith always produces works.

This has turned into total semantics. One would wonder why you logically chose to argue a differing point of view as I have stated over and over that it is faith that works myself.

You chose to stand opposite to a position I took to Darius' statement, so I was assummed you took the same stand as Darius. It should be noted that there have been bad connotations applied to the term "faith alone" since the days of the Apostles, and is probably why the Holy Spirit, in neither the Bible nor the SOP, ever used the term salvationally, instead choosing the exact opposite in James' statement that it is NOT by faith alone. Your arguments, however, show you are supportive of faith THAT works, so again I am at a loss from your confrontational attitude toward my remark to Darius. Do you do it just for arguments sake?

I am equally at a loss to explain the logic behind the disgressions you take with the English language as well, taking the view that

Saved by faith in Christ alone, is the same as
Saved by faith alone in Christ; and that

I went alone by car, is the same as
I went by car alone (the first being, I came by myself in a car; the second being, I came using only a car)

That is between you and your English teacher, as it is not good grammer no matter how to seek to explain it.

The main point is now blurred as I would agree with your statements that we are saved by a faith that works, which I have been saying from the beginning, that Noah would not have been saved in disobedience in building the ark, nor was his seat guaranteed by his building it.

So then, the only question remaining is, do you or do you not agree with Darius' statement that salvation was accomplished 2,000 years ago at the cross? You are good at answering in many words to cloud the issue, but it would probably be fruitless for me to get a plain yes or no answer to this.

This has turned into total semantics. One would wonder why you logically chose to argue a differing point of view as I have stated over and over that it is faith that works myself.

I've never met you. I don't know what your viewpoint is. You quoted a statement from James, apparently discrediting (it seemed to me) the idea that salvation is by faith alone. I made the simple statement, "Salvation is by faith alone" and you reacted strongly. I responded to your reaction.

You chose to stand opposite to a position I took to Darius' statement, so I was assummed you took the same stand as Darius.

That was a naive assumption. Have you been reading what Darius writes? No one here is going to agree with him, as a whole. That doesn't mean he might say some things which are right on.

I still don't know what you are referring to. What I remember writing was, "Salvation is by faith alone." How can this be construed as taking the same stand as Darius, or standing opposite to a position you took, especially if you agree with it?


It should be noted that there have been bad connotations applied to the term "faith alone" since the days of the Apostles, and is probably why the Holy Spirit, in neither the Bible nor the SOP, ever used the term salvationally, instead choosing the exact opposite in James' statement that it is NOT by faith alone. Your arguments, however, show you are supportive of faith THAT works, so again I am at a loss from your confrontational attitude toward my remark to Darius. Do you do it just for arguments sake?

No, Bill, it was you who brought up the argument. I responded to your points.

I take it from your comments here that you are in agreement with what I wrote. However, until your very last post, this was not clear to me.

As an observer to this exchange, I can't help but think that it is becoming personal.

Jeff

I can only speak for myself. I don't know Bill. I have no feelings of animosity towards him. I hope nothing I've written would lead one to think so. I was reacting to the ideas he expressed, and hope I've not written anything appropriate either in content or in spirit.