Please, I need your help and advice. I had a phone conversation with someone the other day and we spoke about Christian standards and salvation. The brother I was speaking with began to question me about my lifestyle.

He wanted to know if I followed the laws of health as defined in the Bible and the SOP. I told him that I do. Then he asked if I eat meat, and I told him about the time, several years ago, that I ate a small portion of my non-Christian biological brother’s turkey on Thanksgiving so as not to offend him. I also told him that I eat chocolate and ice cream several times per month.

Upon learning these things about me he became agitated and vehemently told me that I am not a true Christian and that I am going to hell, and that because I am a minister of the gospel I will suffer longer for my sins in the lake of fire. I pleaded with him to show me from the Bible or the SOP where eating clean meat, chocolate, and ice cream are sins. He promised that he would email me the necessary quotes.

The following posts are the results of our continued correspondence. I would greatly appreciate your help and advice as to how to process it. Thank you.

Dear Brother ****,

I hope this email finds you rejoicing in sweet Jesus!

I'd like to follow up on something we spoke about the other day. You indicated you weren't sure if you would be translated alive if Jesus were to return right now because you are still working on overcoming an impatience problem.

Here's my question: Do you think you be raised in the first resurrection if you were to die before overcoming your impatience problem?

Blessings, Mike

Hi Mike,

I believe that if I were to die today I would come forth in the first resurrection. Steps to Christ page sixty-four is one quote that comes to mind.

Would you please show me where the following series of points is incorrect? Please try to be specific:

“It is not the greatness of the act of disobedience that constitutes sin, but the fact of variance from God's expressed will in the least particular;” (MB 51) Point #1—variance from God’s expressed will in the least particular is sin.

“In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will…” (4T 147, 148) Point #2—the writings of Ellen White are an _expression of God’s will.

The statement: “Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs.” (CD 380) is a part of Ellen White’s writings. Point #3—since Ellen White’s writings are an _expression of God’s will, and CD 380 is a part of Ellen White’s writings, CD 380 is an _expression of God’s will.

Point #4—since variance from God’s expressed will in the least particular is sin, and CD 380 is an _expression of God’s will, variance from CD 380 is sin.

I will be praying for you.

Sincerely, ****

Dear Brother ****

You wrote the following, “I believe that if I were to die today I would come forth in the first resurrection. Steps to Christ page sixty-four is one quote that comes to mind.”

(The following was my response):

SC 64
There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance. {SC 64.1}

“And if you will but yield yourself to Him …” Here is what she wrote about “yielding” a few pages before the quote you posted:

SC 33
Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit. {SC 33.2}

SC 43
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3}

SC 48
Through the right exercise of the will, an entire change may be made in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, you ally yourself with the power that is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from above to hold you steadfast, and thus through constant surrender to God you will be enabled to live the new life, even the life of faith. {SC 48.1}

Do you believe that born again believers who have yielded their will to Jesus will be guilty of committing known sins while they are abiding in Him?

Also, do you believe, in light of the following quotes, that Jesus will change our unconquered defective traits of character when He returns?

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. {4T 429.2}

COL 307
By the marriage is represented the union of humanity with divinity; the wedding garment represents the character which all must possess who shall be accounted fit guests for the wedding. {COL 307.1}

COL 314
He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment. {COL 314.2}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

COL 331
Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}

Blessings, Mike

PS – I will address the other questions you asked in my next email.

Dear Brother ****

You asked the following questions:

“Would you please show me where the following series of points is incorrect? Please try to be specific:

“It is not the greatness of the act of disobedience that constitutes sin, but the fact of variance from God's expressed will in the least particular;” (MB 51) Point #1—variance from God’s expressed will in the least particular is sin.”

I agree.

“In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will…” (4T 147, 148) Point #2—the writings of Ellen White are an __expression of God’s will.

I agree.

The statement: “Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs.” (CD 380) is a part of Ellen White’s writings. Point #3—since Ellen White’s writings are an __expression of God’s will, and CD 380 is a part of Ellen White’s writings, CD 380 is an __expression of God’s will.

I agree.

Point #4—since variance from God’s expressed will in the least particular is sin, and CD 380 is an __expression of God’s will, variance from CD 380 is sin.

I disagree. It is not a sin to eat clean meat unless it specifically says so in the Bible or the SOP. Obviously, if possible, not eating clean meat is best, but eating it is not a sin. Please show me where she clearly says eating clean meat is a sin.

Nowhere, that I know of, does she contradict the Bible. The Bible nowhere says eating clean meat is a sin. Therefore, I doubt there is a passage where she contradicts the Bible on this issue.

“Sin is the transgression of the law.” Sister White supports this definition of sin. Again, nowhere in the Bible is eating clean meat considered a sin. The law of God spells out in great detail exactly which animals can be eaten without becoming guilty of sinning. It was not considered the ideal diet back then. It was a compromise on God’s part. It is even less ideal today. But nowhere is it deemed a sin to eat clean meat.

Blessings, Mike

PS – I am waiting for your response to the questions I asked. Also, I am waiting for your response to the article on the history of the meat eating in the SDA church. Thank you.

Link to history of meat eating:

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default

MR852 - Manuscript Release No. 852: The Development of Adventist Thinking on Clean and Unclean Meats (1981)

Dear Mike,

I am sorry, but I won’t be corresponding with you any longer. I wish I could help you, but at this point it is obvious you don’t want the kind of help that I believe you need.

With much sadness, ****

P.S.—It is not your questions to me that have caused me to discontinue. (Actually, I appreciate your questions—they cause me to both think and search.) It is your clinging to your low standards that causes me to discontinue.

Dear Mike,

Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them. {CD 382.1}

It would be poor policy to support from the treasury of God those who really mar and injure His work, and who are constantly lowering the standard of Christianity. {3T 553.2}

From reading your posts and **** sharing with me your conversation with him, I find it very depressing to think of you as a minister, supposedly calling people to a higher standard. You cannot call people to a higher standard than you yourself have, which is not very high…the sad part is, you have the same Spirit of Prophecy books that we have, and if the Holy Spirit hasn’t been able to convince you that meat eating, ring wearing, eating ice-cream and chocolate are sin from the Spirit of Prophecy, there isn’t anything else we could do…

We learned long ago, as I posted on **** that when we meet a minister (SDA) who is not teaching and LIVING the health message, I have no desire to listen to ANYTHING else he might say…because I KNOW that he himself is not right with God and has nothing to offer me. I know you will think that is critical and unkind, but I’m sorry…I believe it 100%.

I want to become friends Mike, with those who want to follow God all the way, not just part of the way. I feel as you are a very dangerous minister…Why? Because you come off as a “nice guy”, friendly, warm, etc. That gets peoples guard down… Then you feed them these “lower the standard” lines…yet at the same time, you tell them you believe in high standards and over-coming…but in practice, you don’t…very deceptive….

If you ever get convicted of following God all the way, then we would like to pursue a friendship with you…but if you continue on how you are now…well, “How can two walk together except they be agreed?” We are NOT coming your way…so there would be nothing but friction…unless you come our way. We don’t have time to argue about these things…we are out to find people who are wanting to follow God with all their hearts, and don’t want to waste time with those who want to hang on to their sins. I know that sounds cold and hard, but it is the truth…I believe you want to hang on to and justify your course of continuing to do the things we are counseled not to do. I’m sorry, Mike…there isn’t any point in us discussing anything….

It would be different Mike, if you were a new SDA who hasn’t read the SOP, and didn’t know what they were getting baptized into, but that is not the case. You are a shepherd for the church. You of all people should have the highest standards. Instead you are trying to convince me, a sheep, that my standards are too high, that yours are right. Thanks, but no thanks, Mike. If you ever allow the Holy Spirit to convict you of sin, before it is too late, please contact us. We hope and pray you do….

Sincerely, (brother ****’s wife)

Mike,
We have had our disagreemens on these things before, but I find that no one will be able to live up to anyones standards.
With that said you have Bible evidence and SOP evidence to support the position that eating clean meants will not result in you losing your salvation. Its a goodidea to not be eating meat in today's condition, but the same can be said for vegetables, and nutrient deficient soil which may cause unwanted bacteria to grow on these plants, and also not to mention the GMO (Genetically Modified Organism) vegetables that contain animal genes, the list goes on and on.
If this person claims to be so specialized in reading the SOP then why did he not question Jesus Christ's decision to feed the 5,000 bread and fish? My words may fail to do justice, but this is not an issue at all, and Iwouldn't allow this person to try and shake your faith because you ate a thanksgiving turkey, and had some icecream...big deal.
if you sold people out for a bite to eat, and had no self-control and delighted in temporal things such as Easau who sold his birthright for a morsel of food which illustrates he had no control, not that it was eating itself.
I hope you are Ok.
God Bless,
Will

I would submit that the problem is not with you MM but with the judgemental attitude of your friend. How sad it is that some people are like this. It might be that the best you can do is pray for him.

Redfog

Mike,

I agree with Will and Redfog. Nothing you might say would change this person's opinion. I guess the best you can do is leave it at that.