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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73109
04/10/06 04:53 PM
04/10/06 04:53 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Having recently studied the later parts of Romans, it appears to me that this is a textbook case of what Paul is addresing in chapter 14.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

Read the entire chapter as I just quoted parts for the sake of space.
It appears to me that while it is ok for you to eat chocolate and turkey, it would be sinfull for the couple youve had contact with, and you better stay vegan while eating in their company. I would have sent this chapter to them had I been in the conversation though it would likely not have had any more effect than what you sent them.
If you find out a way to reach these people, Id be interested to know how it goes.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73110
04/11/06 01:56 PM
04/11/06 01:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you, everyone, for the advice and encouragement. Even though I disagree with their ideas on diet and salvation it is still hard to cope with being told I am not a Christian and that I am going to hell for eating clean meat, ice cream, and chocolate. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Again, thank you.

By the way, how would you counter their use of the SOP? I agree with Rosangela that they will most likely never change their minds about it, but is it right to draw the conclusions they did by stringing quotes together like they did?

In other words, is it okay to conclude that it is a "sin" to eat meat because Sister White wrote 1) meat shouldn't enter our mouth, 2) her counsel represents the will of God, and 3) it is a sin to violate the will of God in even the smallest detail? Is that a valid method?

Thomas, I agree that we should be careful not to offend weaker Christians by eating things they are convinced is a sin. But I wonder how this principle applies in the case of people who are seasoned, well-read Christians? What do you think?

Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73111
04/11/06 04:33 PM
04/11/06 04:33 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.




Very punny, MM. But shouldn't the ice cream leave a good taste in your mouth?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73112
04/11/06 05:19 PM
04/11/06 05:19 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike asked:
"By the way, how would you counter their use of the SOP? I agree with Rosangela that they will most likely never change their minds about it, but is it right to draw the conclusions they did by stringing quotes together like they did? "

-Insist that the conversation go Scripture only. If the case cannot be made by scripture alone its not a salvation issue IMO.

Mike asked:
Thomas, I agree that we should be careful not to offend weaker Christians by eating things they are convinced is a sin. But I wonder how this principle applies in the case of people who are seasoned, well-read Christians? What do you think?

-Mike, nothing new under the sun. Dont you think this is somewhat similar to Pauls first letter to Corinth (third chapter)? Adressing people who ought to know better but who obviously do not. Also, legalism isnt all that new either. Consider this:

Romans 3:
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

and also

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73113
04/12/06 03:41 PM
04/12/06 03:41 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Just have time for a quickie.

Quote:

it is still hard to cope with being told I am not a Christian




I think this is something all true Christians must get used to. Jesus suffered the same thing, so we shouldn't expect any better.

Quote:

going to hell for eating clean meat, ice cream, and chocolate




As was posted already, the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking. In fact, there are some verses where Jesus and Paul strongly imply that what we eat is not a moral issue in itself.

But the motives for eating, or not eating, is a moral issue. Here are some inspired statements (paraphrased):
  • Whether we eat or drink, do all to the glory of God.
  • True temperance teaches us to abstain from that which is unhealthful and to use judiciously that which is healthful.
  • Make no provision for the flesh.
  • Walk in the Spirit and you will not walk in the flesh.


Here is the question: When you eat the meat, ice cream, chocolate, ..., do you do it to glorify God or to gratify self? The answer to this will determine your eternal destiny.

Here's the question for your friends: When you don't eat the meat, ice cream, chocolate, ..., do you do it to exalt God or to exalt self?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73114
04/12/06 05:57 PM
04/12/06 05:57 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What does it mean to glorify God by eating ice cream? (I'm in favor of this, by the way).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73115
04/12/06 06:53 PM
04/12/06 06:53 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Quote:

What does it mean to glorify God by eating ice cream?




I believe it means eating ice cream in order to reveal Christ's character in our own.

If what you're really getting at is how that's done, someone else will have to tackle that, since I have no clue (a common experience for me).


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73116
04/12/06 08:13 PM
04/12/06 08:13 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
I guess it isn't as much what you eat as to why you eat it.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73117
04/12/06 11:28 PM
04/12/06 11:28 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Quote:

I guess it isn't as much what you eat as to why you eat it.




The why has always been more important than the what. But the what has a significant impact on how well one can develop the why.

So, while there will be many meat-eaters in Heaven and many vegans in the Lake of Fire, meat-eating will eventually be forsaken by those who are waiting for translation.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: I would appreciate your help and advice. #73118
04/13/06 01:16 AM
04/13/06 01:16 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What does it mean to glorify God by eating ice cream?



I believe it means eating ice cream in order to reveal Christ's character in our own.

Ok. I'm for that too.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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