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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73119
04/13/06 01:44 AM
04/13/06 01:44 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
By the way, how would you counter their use of the SOP? ...is it right to draw the conclusions they did by stringing quotes together like they did? ... Is that a valid method?
This method can be called "stringing together quotes" or it can be called "deductive logic." The difference lies in one's agreement with the conclusion. 
The method is perfectly valid. We use this all the time to prove all sorts of things (e.g. validity of God's law, Sabbath observance, immortality of the soul, ...). You take lines and precepts, then synthesize them into a reasonable picture of reality.
What needs to be questioned is the soundness of the argument. First, articulate every premise in the argument, including the unspoken ones. Then, analyze each premise to see if they are all understood correctly and if they are true. Finally, see if the premises logically lead to the conclusion. (This is easier said than done, as attested to by the oft-misused claim that "such-and-such a belief logically leads to such-and-such a conclusion." There is often an unspoken belief/premise that is not analyzed, and therefore makes both the argument and its refutation less than palatable.)
My take on this particular argument is that it is not sound because it does not take into account the role of motives. Another possibility is that it assumes the motives. Either way, it fails to address the most damning aspect of sin.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73120
04/13/06 03:11 AM
04/13/06 03:11 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A big problem I see with the argument is the picture it paints of God's character. It presents Him who is petty and arbitrary. Or so it seems to me.
It's true that the argument falls short because it doesn't consider our motives. But is also falls short because it does not consider God's motives. What is it God really wants? People who are like Jesus Christ in character, or people who eat just the right thing, who tithe mint, who strain out gnats? Didn't we already see what type of behavior this leads to? Not people who love God, but people who hate Him and would kill Him given the chance, while all the while professing to be God's greatest representatives on earth.
Actually to be clear, what Jesus said was that they should not leave the one undone while doing the other, where the one is doing the small things and the other is, I think, justice, mercy and faith. Jesus revealed a God with wonderful motives. God's motive is that we be healed; that by not frustraing His grace we will be made like Jesus. If we concentrate on the big things (e.g. understanding God's character by beholding it in Jesus Christ) the little things will take care of themselves. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73121
04/13/06 11:14 AM
04/13/06 11:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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This discussion reminds me of a story I heard many years ago of a SDA who said that eating meat was a sin. Then someone told him, "Jesus ate meat", to which he replied, "Jesus didn't have as much light as we have today".
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73122
04/13/06 08:11 PM
04/13/06 08:11 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
falls short because it does not consider God's motives. What is it God really wants? ... God's motive is that we be healed; that by not frustraing His grace we will be made like Jesus.
I agree. Actually, that was one of my unspoken premises. God's goal is to restore in us His moral image, which sin has marred and well-nigh obliterated.
If we will cooperate with Him in molding our character into His likeness, the rest will be fine. Clean the inside of the cup and the outside will also be clean.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73123
04/13/06 08:20 PM
04/13/06 08:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Clean the inside of the cup and the outside will also be clean.
As long as it's not defiled by ice cream.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73124
04/13/06 11:49 PM
04/13/06 11:49 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Clean the inside of the cup and the outside will also be clean.
As long as it's not defiled by ice cream.
Depends why the ice cream is there. Fix the root and the fruit will inevitably follow.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73125
04/14/06 12:09 AM
04/14/06 12:09 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
"Jesus didn't have as much light as we have today"
Sounds like there's some confusion regarding the Lesser Light and its relation to the Source of all light.
Quote:
No other light has shone, or ever will shine, upon the intellect of sinful, fallen man, save that which was, and is, communicated through Him who is the light of the world. {RH, April 8, 1873 par. 16}
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73126
04/14/06 12:21 AM
04/14/06 12:21 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
I agree that we should be careful not to offend weaker Christians by eating things they are convinced is a sin. But I wonder how this principle applies in the case of people who are seasoned, well-read Christians?
"Seasoned and well-read" does not necessarily mean "not weak." One can spend 3.5 years in close contact with Christ, and still be a weak Christian, or even be un-Christian.
In cases of preference, we should never offend. Paul said he would give up meat if it meant avoiding being a stumbling block. We should be just as ready to forsake our preferences for the benefit of a single soul.
In cases of principle, we should never compromise. If peace can be gained only by compromising truth, then let there be war. We should be ready to lay down our lives for principle, because we might soon be called upon to do so.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73127
04/14/06 01:47 AM
04/14/06 01:47 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Depends why the ice cream is there. Fix the root and the fruit will inevitably follow.
I think you got it. The ice cream is there for the fruit.
(Arnold, I'm agreeing with; just having fun.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73128
04/14/06 02:09 AM
04/14/06 02:09 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Depends why the ice cream is there. Fix the root and the fruit will inevitably follow.
I think you got it. The ice cream is there for the fruit.
(Arnold, I'm agreeing with; just having fun.)
Great idea! Now, if you can find me hotdogs with fruit...
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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