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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73169
05/03/06 01:58 PM
05/03/06 01:58 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If you are asking if there is a difference between dying and being ready to be translated, the answer is yes. Quote:
Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.
(GC 425)
Regarding whether God changes the character when Christ comes for the dead, the answer is no, but it should be born in mind that the character is not set by the occasional good deed or misdeed, but the general trend of the life. Really the simple question is if a given person would be happy in God's presence. If the answer is "yes," said person will be included in the first resurrection.
It is much more helpful, IMO, to consider this question from the standpoint of being in harmony with God and the principles of His government than to consider questions of behavior. The Pharisees may have appeared to be a good match for heaven on the basis of behavior, but they were never in harmony with God or His principles.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73170
05/03/06 02:04 PM
05/03/06 02:04 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Quote:
The Pharisees may have appeared to be a good match for heaven on the basis of behavior, but they were never in harmony with God or His principles.
Therein lies the rub. Was the Pharisees' problem because they were rebellious or because they were misguided as to who the God is or what His/Her principles are?
Last edited by Darius; 05/03/06 02:04 PM.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73171
05/03/06 05:31 PM
05/03/06 05:31 PM
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Darius, is there such a thing as selfishness? If I’m on my way to something trivial, like to see a ballgame, and I see a person stranded on the side of the road, and it’s not in my heart to stop and help, is compassion not in my heart because I haven’t had the same opportunities to know God as well as the person who does stop to help? Or, is it not in my heart because I don’t WANT a fuller understanding of God.
Tom posted a thread about people’s metanarrative. I would love to know yours better. In mine, the limited view I get of your way makes the idea of God a game; purposeless. The only reason I gave up my agnosticism for Christianity is because the Great Controversy was the only Christian paradigm that made any sense.
To be honest, I see no free will in the logical conclusion of your paradigm. Without individual free will—the choice to do wrong, knowing full well that it is wrong, but doing it anyway because it’s what we’d rather do, or doing right, knowing what it will cost in worldly terms yet doing it anyway because it’s right—without that ability, we’re all not much more than robots at the end of it, which makes God a sadistic tyrant playing around with toys.
Jeff
[i]...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.</i]
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73172
05/03/06 05:33 PM
05/03/06 05:33 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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Choosing between two acts is different from choosing between two masters. Remember, we always do what we think is in our own best interest.
Last edited by Darius; 05/03/06 05:35 PM.
Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73173
05/03/06 06:41 PM
05/03/06 06:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
Therein lies the rub. Was the Pharisees' problem because they were rebellious or because they were misguided as to who the God is or what His/Her principles are?
I would say they were rebellious because they were misguided as to God's character and principles.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73174
05/03/06 08:24 PM
05/03/06 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Choosing between two acts is different from choosing between two masters. Remember, we always do what we think is in our own best interest.
Only if you don't know the link between the act and master. And, I disagree that we ALWAYS do what we think is in our own best interest. Do we stop to help someone stranded because it benifits us? Or, do we stop because compassion causes us to think of someone else's best interest?
The self-interest theory works great when we exclude compassion as a motive.
Quote:
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Where's the self interest in that?
Jeff
[i]...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.</i]
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73175
05/04/06 12:58 AM
05/04/06 12:58 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the GC 425 quote you posted, so far as character perfection is concerned, applies to the people resurrected in the first resurrection - right?
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73176
05/04/06 02:02 AM
05/04/06 02:02 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
If we should die before our character defects are crucified will we come up in the first resurrection and go to heaven? Or, will Jesus change them when He returns?
Self must be crucified before probation closes (individual or general). Christ's return will not change anything, only reveal what was already there.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73177
05/04/06 02:12 AM
05/04/06 02:12 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Quote:
Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.
Doesn't this apply to all the saved, not just the translated ones?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: I would appreciate your help and advice.
#73178
05/04/06 02:57 AM
05/04/06 02:57 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, the quote I quoted was specifically referencing those who would be alive at Christ's coming. She spoke of a "special work" to be done for this purpose. She also referenced their need to stand before God without a mediator.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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