Quoted from Darius.

There is no real need for this focus on death. The only immortal being in the universe is the Creator. Every other being is mortal and will die unless sustained in life by the Creator (not by eating of a tree. Let us keep the metaphors straight). Eternal life is a gift; it has always been.

Unquote.

In other word, death happens because God no longer sustain the life of this being, which make you in one group with M.M.

Is death an inevitable result of sin, such as gravity that takes all things down? In the sense that God has nothing to do with death, He is not the author or the Source of death, He is only the Source of life.

Or is God the Source of death as He is the Source of life?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. NIV.

Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

From these verses I got the impression that our death is connected to God.
Could we find other things that may sustained the correct one of those two ideas which is very contradictory?

If God is the author of death, the Source of death:
1. If he takes the life of his being when he thinks the time is right, redemption is not necessary, Christ is not needed, and God has no son.
2. If death is Adam’s choice, and God only execute the death upon us, we need Christ to redeem us and God’s love need Him to save us.
If Satan is the author of death, the source of death:
1. Then humanity is doomed to die for we were all Satan’s children, he is our father since the day Adam choose to sin.
2. Satan becoming another God; God’s creature who become a Creator himself and has the power of death upon us, while God has the power of life.
3. Redemption is impossible because it is not God that set before us the way of death but Satan (Deu. 30:19), which having the power of death upon us, may kill us anytime he thinks is right.

Maybe Satan is just the one that makes death emerge but not the author or the creator or the source of death. Maybe Satan is the author or creator to emerge the death from God hands, but the source of death would still be God alone.

Ah, I got confuse, need your inputs on this.

In His love

James S

Tom.

What make you think that if God is the author and creator of death makes him look cruel, savage and not good?

Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Evil, if not exercised, is only a word with a meaning, when exercised become evilness.

God created his free moral agents (angels and men) without the knowledge of good and evil. They must find out themselves what is good and what is evil. Only God who knows what good is and what evil is.

God knew exactly what good is, because he is good.
God knew exactly what evil is for he is the creator of evil, but he is not evil.
God is the Source of life and sustain all his creation with his power of life.
God create evil and when his creatures come to know what evil is, he kill them (Deu. 33:9) because evilness could not stand and live together for eternity with righteousness.

If he kill them, then death is his creation, God is the Source of death.

Only death would not happens to his creation who was created with the plan to live eternally if evilness (sin) didn’t emerge, which was the result of his creation exercising their knowledge and free will choice in order to know what evil is, but comes out worse (against His principle).

In this way, I don’t see God as cruel, or savage, or evil.
He is still a good and loving God.

In His love

James S.

Okkay.

I must decide which view I would accept and use in my book to be distributed to my fellow Christians, my family Sunday keepers and my SDA’s fellowmen.

And since I would only accept and use views that are supported by the bible, I must decide that Tom’s view even though is very logic and make sense, but is not supported by the bible and upheld only by EGW.

But since EGW teaching is a lesser light against the bible, I use the bible idea.

I decide to view death as an inevitable result of sin, but created and executed by God himself without standing against his principle of love, for death is Adam’s own choice in spite he had been warned previously.

Therefore, since humanity couldn’t save their selves, their fate is born to die and needs God to redeem them and save them. God’s love needs Him to redeem and save humanity but to act without standing against his own integrity and the law principle, He has been left with no choice but to offer himself as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin and redemption of men through the birth, life, death and resurrection of His own begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

In His love

James S

Tom.

What make you think that if God is the author and creator of death makes him look cruel, savage and not good?

The following makes me thing this, James:

Quote:

---

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he (Satan) charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. (DA 24)

---

If God really were the author of sin and death, it wouldn't make any sense to say that Jesus came to unveil this deception of Satan, would it?

Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

The Scripture often speaks of God doing that which He permits. For example, the Bible in one spot says that God killed Saul. It says God founded the Old Covenant. It says God caused David to number Israel. And here is says that God creates evil, but this is only in the sense that He permits it to happen, and as the Sovereign of the Universe, He assumes responsibility for everything that happens in it, even when this responsibility costs the sacrifice of His son.

To know what God is like, look to Jesus Christ! He is the perfect picture of God's character. Look at how He reacted to the woman caught in adultery. "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Look how He reacted to Judas, His betrayer -- He washed his feet! He called him friend. Look that parable of the prodigal Son, of how the father accepted the son while he was a long way off, not even waiting to hear his story. From Jesus Christ we understand the true picture of God.

Evil, if not exercised, is only a word with a meaning, when exercised become evilness.

God created his free moral agents (angels and men) without the knowledge of good and evil. They must find out themselves what is good and what is evil. Only God who knows what good is and what evil is.

God never intended for us to know evil. This was the enemy's idea. If God's plans had been followed, no human being would ever have known the pain, suffering, misery and death that sin causes. God is good!

God knew exactly what good is, because he is good.
God knew exactly what evil is for he is the creator of evil, but he is not evil.

Satan is the creator of evil, not God.

God is the Source of life and sustain all his creation with his power of life.
God create evil and when his creatures come to know what evil is, he kill them (Deu. 33:9) because evilness could not stand and live together for eternity with righteousness.

Sin causes death, not God! God's law says, "Thou shalt not kill." If we want to know what God is like, we should look to Jesus. When Jesus was urged to destroy those who were opposing Him he said, "You do not know what spirit you are of." To kill is the spirit of Satan. Jesus was manifestly against violence. Jesus never did evil, and He never killed anyone. Jesus submitted to violence, even to the death of the cross, but He did not perpetrate it. Once again, if we want to know what God is really like, we should look to Jesus.

If he kill them, then death is his creation, God is the Source of death.

If sin kills them, and Satan invented sin, then Satan is the source of death. If God were the source of death, why would Jesus have come to unveil this deception? It wouldn't be a deception if it were true, would it?

Only death would not happens to his creation who was created with the plan to live eternally if evilness (sin) didn’t emerge, which was the result of his creation exercising their knowledge and free will choice in order to know what evil is, but comes out worse (against His principle).

In this way, I don’t see God as cruel, or savage, or evil.
He is still a good and loving God.

This last part makes sense. The question to ask is if God intended for sin to happen. When you look at the character of Jesus Christ, what do you think? Do you think Jesus Christ intended for sin to happen? Do you think He likes it when we suffer? Remember that God is just like Jesus!

In His love

James S.

James, I agree with you. Tom's view of death goes against what I believe to be true in the Bible and the SOP. I also believe the SOP agrees with the Bible. We die the first death because God will not allow us, in our sinful state, to eat from the tree of life.

We will be resurrected to die the second death if we reject redemption in Jesus. Again, God is the one who will punish and destroy us in the lake of fire. He stops giving us life. In this sense God is the source of death. Which is right. Only God has the right to give and take life according to His love and wisdom.

Humanity needs redemption because God chose to create free moral agents who chose to sin. The only way to eliminate sin is to eliminate sinners. There are two ways to eliminate sinners - 1) Empower them to stop sinning, 2) Destroy them in the lake of fire.

The only way to empower sinners to stop sinning is to motivate them to want to stop sinning. The only way to accomplish this was for Jesus to live and die on our behalf. When we accept Him as our personal Saviour we are free to sin and free to imitate His sinless example. We are not free to sin until we are from sin.

Jesus also had to die for the sins we committed before we were born again and saved from a life of sinning. God cannot simply overlook our history of sinning. The wages of sinning is death, and Jesus had to pay that penalty in order to forgive us, to empower us to live without sinning, and to reward us with eternal life in the New Earth. Thank God for Jesus!

Quoted from Tom post.
________________________________________

And since I would only accept and use views that are supported by the bible, I must decide that Tom’s view even though is very logic and make sense, but is not supported by the bible and upheld only by EGW.________________________________________
I think every point I've made I have supported by Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. Could you please name some specific point I've made which is not supported by such? At least I'm glad you think it's logical

Unquote.

I have checked your posts here in this thread, your idea that humanity died because of their sin, stressing it: “sin causes death”, has no scriptural support, just a logic based on EGW quotes.

But I must admit that it is very logic indeed and make me must postpone my decision in order to study it further. If this idea is so important for you and Mike that both of you didn’t come to an agreement in the past 3 years till now, then surely there must be a good reason for it.

You wrote:
The death was not in the apple, but in the sin.

Death is inherent in sin. One cannot have sin without death. When Christ became sin, He died. God didn't kill Him, but He died because of sin. This is one of the key things His death was intended to demonstrate.
Unquote.

This idea is strong.

Paul said: For since death came through a man, the resurrection from the death comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21,22

Another quote from Paul: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

My understanding for what Paul had said is:
1. Humanity died because they were incorporated in Adam’s body even they were unborn yet, which means, the fate of humanity is secure, born to die, according to 1 Corinthians 15:22.
2. Humanity died because all have sinned.

The question now is, “what kills Adam?” How did he die?
We have two solid answers here, which one is supported by the bible?

1. Sin causes death, IOW – Adam died because of his sin, as according to Tom Ewall
2. Adam died because his life is no longer sustained by the fruit of life. Created immortal, he only could survive and continue to live if he continue eats the fruit of life, this is as according to M.M.

Hey, I like to have thoughts regarding this matter from others, especially you Daryl.

In His love

James S.

M.M.

You saidL

James, I agree that death is inevitable if we do not or cannot eat from the tree of life. This will be true throughout eternity. To say that death resides within us, like a dormant seed, might be stretching it, though. Remember, the wages of sin is instant death, not the gradual one we experience now. God causes the second death, not natural law.

The plan of salvation made the first death possible. Otherwise, the human race would have ended with the immediate punishment and destruction of Adam and Eve. Notice also that sinners could live forever if God permitted them to eat from the tree of life.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

If there is no plan of salvation, there would be only 1st death without 2nd death, right? Whether gradually or instantly, it doesn’t matter. What important is: Is this death the inevitable result of sin or is it sin that caused death, or do we die because we no longer eat the fruit of life. Why we no longer eat the fruit of life? Because we have sinned and God had expelled us from Eden and we could no longer stretch our arm to reach and take the fruit of life. Which was God concern, otherwise sinners would live forever.

In this case, it could not be sin that causes death, because it was overruled by eating the fruit of life.

In His love

James S

I thought I would try to clarifying this topic in a different way. For sake of brevity I did not give scripture references, but would be happy to do so, on any questions.

On the question of life and death, a number of things need to be realized. Eternal life exists only in the spirit and not in the (body) physics. There is no body (physics) heavenly or earthly that has inherent eternal existence except it continually derives it so from the spirit. When God created free moral beings he gave them life in the spirit, and he gave them life in the body. These are two different kinds of life; one is spiritual, the other physical. Had God given only spiritual life; then as soon as one sinned or considered sin, such would have died, ceased to exist; because that is the nature of sin. In this, sin is synonymous with death. It is the transgression against the life of the spirit. It is separation from the life of God and the spirit of God. It is death. Such is sin.

The point of being a free moral being is the ability of love, faith, choice, and judgment. All of these are spiritual. These are in themselves both, abilities of independence and abilities of fellowship. We were created in the image of God, meaning that he also is a free moral being with these same abilities. In order to be free and have the ability to exercise these abilities, one must have the ability of survival on either side of the equation, or the ability to consider, evaluate, and re-evaluate would be impossible.

So when God created free moral beings he gave them life in the spirit, and he gave them life in the body. When the spirit was one with God, it was the life of the body. When the spirit separated from God it became subject to the life of the body. Had God not made it so; there would be no possibility to be a free moral being. In this manner freedom of consideration in spirit and evaluation and choice are enabled. Eating of the tree of life perpetuated the life of the body which otherwise by itself is in degenerative mode. The degenerative aspect is particularly keyed to the spirit. Being one with God is eternal life in spirit.

The issue to come to grips with is that sin is committed in the spirit and sin removes the spirit from God’s life, thus establishing death in the spirit. The spirit now deriving its life from the body continues to live “death”. Thus death reigns in the realm of sin. The plan of salvation immediately interposed the striving of God’s spirit with the fallen spirit; namely between death and us. ‘Time’ is provided through the life of the body for reconsideration of spirit, during which we may evaluate the truth and choose eternal life in the spirit. If we choose life, the spirit may again be the life of the body. Christ said; man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. The word establishes the life of the spirit, and bread the life of the body.

Since all have awareness about the life of the body more or less, but not all know the life of the spirit, I should define it briefly. The life of the spirit is what salvation and redemption is about. It is in the spirit that righteousness or sin is exists and thus it is there that life or death reign. The manner of spirit depicts its life or death. The nature of eternal life in the spirit can readily be seen in the description of the fruit of the Holy Spirit which is also described as the glory of God. Therefore Christ said: It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

How is death in the spirit seen? This is not as easy to recognize as life, because the existence of the spirit continues, though being dead, by drawing its life from the body. The biggest deception of sin is that sin in the spirit establishes a justice that kills, which means death. This justice, sin has successfully painted as God’s. We can see the results of the working of death through the body life in the following scriptures:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21) Because the fallen spirit lives by the flesh it lives to please the flesh.

Salvation is primarily the work of saving the fallen spirit from the law of sin and death and its living by the flesh, to the law of the spirit of life in Christ. The issue of physical life is secondary and dependent on the spiritual.

This is why Christ says again: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Joh 5:24

JS - If there is no plan of salvation, there would be only 1st death without 2nd death, right? Whether gradually or instantly, it doesn’t matter.

MM - Actually Adam and Eve would have instantly died the second death had Jesus not implemented the plan of salvation. Without the plan of salvation a slow gradual first death would have served no purpose. It matters because it would have been cruel of God to allow them to suffer on as sinners with no hope.

Again, death is not the result of sinning. We die the first death because God will not allow us to eat of the tree of life in our sinul state. Otherwise, we could live forever as sinners. But Jesus loves us too much to permit us to live forever in a sinful state. In this sense the first death is a kind of blessing.

Also, the second death is not the result of sinning. Unsaved sinners will die the second death because God will resurrect them and then punish and destroy them in the lake of fire. The reason He will do this is because their unwillingness to embrace Jesus as their personal Saviour unfits them for heaven, and because the wages of sin is death, namely, death by fire.